Robben Ford Discussion

[davidS]

[JackD]

Daved:

This is a great thread and topic. Someone once asked Abe Lincoln “how long should a man’s legs be.” Lincoln replied “as long as is needed to reach the floor.” I too believe that when in comes to tone, the “perfect tone” is what is needed to convey the musical message the artist wants to get across.

To me, Ritchie Blackmore had the perfect tone for Deep Purple. Pete Townshend had the perfect tone for The Who. Zal Cleminson had the perfect tone for The Sensational Alex Harvey Band (I'll bet that only few of you remember them!). Again, all of these guys had the perfect tone for the context.

All that being said, however, folks can have their favorite tones. For me, Robben is clearly at the top of the list. What I think is most important is tone in the context of TFPTM, or Tone, Feel, Phrasing, Timing, and Melody. It is this combination that can make a musician exceptional and Robben is a 10 out of 10 on all fronts. For example, this is why I like John Scofield, but he does not kill me like Robben does. John is a 10 in terms of melody and phrasing and he has a unique feel. However, I’m not knocked out about his timing and I don’t care for his tone. I put Mike Stern in the same category.

There are other great guitarists that (in my opinion) are all 10s on the TFPTM scale. Some of my favorites include Larry Carlton, Derek Trucks, Joe Pass, Jimmy Herring, and Jerry Douglas (dobro) just to name a few. You’ll notice that all of these guys play in different styles (from Jazz to Bluegrass).

To me it’s all about communicating a total package that creates a unique and identifiable musical identity that you can tell upon hearing the artist for two seconds. In my book, that defines greatness.

[FatTeleTom]

[JohnnyZ]

[Daved]

I don't know if he still usses them, but I would imagine so. I know Alexander was recently working on some of Carlos' gear.

I also know that when Carlos acquired the Dumbles he now has (two, I'm pretty sure, if not more) Alexander spent a couple of months tweaking and fine tuning them to Carlos' needs (as Alexander always does with the Overdrives... that's why no 2 are really alike) so, thought they are Dumble O/D's, I'm sure they probably have some characteristics particular to Carlos' sound and style.

Also, I know from my years working with Santana, that though the only amp usually visable to the audience is a small Mesa 1-12 speaker box sitting on the corner of the drum riser, onstage he has a switchbox amongst his footpedals which switches several full blown amp rigs hidden under the drum riser, playing out thru the colorful scrim. When I was around he had a couple of Mesa cabs (with their heads over in quitarland), a 100w Marshall head w/ 4-12 cab, and one other brand "for crunch sounds" as he would put it (I'm totally spacing what it was at the moment, but I'm sure it will come back to me when I don't TRY to remember it).

I wouldn't doubt that he still sets up in much the same way.
He may endorse one particular brand, but his sound usually seems to be made up of a combination/variety of brands.
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( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)

[Michael]

Hello Daved:

Interesting discussion ... it's a beautiful day in Northern CA ... just got back taking my young Robben Ford fan off to college in San Louis Obispo ... tomorrow it's a drive to San Diego as my college graduated daughter is starting her first job.

How is it with the young drummer in your family? ... a proud Dad no doubt.

Me, I just like the way Robben plays. Today I was listening to "The Authorized Bootleg" ... an unplugged event ... and yes, the typical "tone" is not there, but what a fun cd. The whole thing is just cool and fits. Robben told my son, Jordan, that the way to get there is to "apply yourself like a mo fo" For me, it's all about the guitar playing, a great song, and Robben could play just about anything and I would enjoy it. No doubt his ear would make it fit.

[Bluelobster]

. During the woodstock concert Hendrix said something like :
"...when love get in sounds ..." ( followed by a thunderous larsen)
that might be tone for me , imho and so ........
While in Ojai , during the clinic Robben said something about the " flying hand " , which for me refer to a really precious state of mind because when you have reached this Gear is not really a problem , it is tone for days like they use to say.
This being said i know i am ready to play a Rumble or whatever clone because my vision of sound (maybe tone?) in my brain is exactly what i feel when i listen people playing gear like that . It is not the matter i have to replicate each super subtle hallucinogenic licks from Robben, thanks God there is no other limit than money, it is the way you hear a bend or whatever slide , you know that is a hell of an ampifier and you just want to try one...................

[telefunk1]

Re the Santana question - check out his cover story in Vintage Guitar from a few months back. He talks at length about tone, inspiration, etc. And there is a lot of info on his rig - he is using both Dumble and Boogie.

[pullagnm]

I think there is a lot of emotion behind their playing that defines their tone.

[Cal]

I think that a lot of the time, tone is what gets the point across exactly with what the song is, the attitude is -- everything is sympatico. Like somehow, Adrian Belew's sound, crazy as it might be, is right on with what he is doing. Jeff Beck, bang on ... me when I go looking for tone it changes day to day because my mind is somewhere else and I get frustrated trying to find what meshes with my head or ears -- somehow my hands can't get it out. So I think I have to get it out of the heart somehow. When I hear Robben and those other guys, (props for the Zal Cleminson reference -- Vambo rules!) what I think I hear is what's going on in their hearts. Attitude -- that one note. Beck in "Cause we ended as Lovers, Santana in Europa, Robben in Prison of Love, those feel like x-rays into what those guys are feeling.

[Aeolian]

Daved, let me take a stab at your original question. The fascination with Robben's BlueLine overdriven lead tone. For years many guitar players have been trying to achieve certain attributes. Warmth, fullness, singing sustain, a lack of buzz, thickness, along with some sense of the undistorted timbre of the guitar and dynamic coloration. The singing sound of the Boogie set Carlos on his ear and he worked to realize some of those other attributes using these amps but they were swamped by the essential character of the Boogie amp. And folks tried other amps that followed the Boogie. Robben even tried Boogies for awhile, but was still open to other things because he heard this other more complete tone in his head. But until the first BlueLine album, nobody had come close to achieving it. Maybe because it was so elusive, it because a sort of "holy grail". I know that I chased these attributes for 20 odd years before I ever heard of Robben. So when I heard that sound being achieved, it struck me.
The singing part had been done by Carlos (and early fusion Robben). The thick part had been done by many but probably perfected by Brian May. The big Strat sound had been done by Jimi. The dynamic attack had been done by Bloomfield and various other Tele disciples like Roy Buchanan. But no one had put them all together in a way like Robben did. He got into the realm of what many guitarists held as an impossible holy grail combination of attributes.
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[titanicslim]

Great subject, Daved

I think there have been a lot of good comments on the subject of "tone vs. sound", although the two can never be fully divorced.

We usually think of sound as comprising things like attack, ampltude and decay. In fact, I can almost recall (it was a couple days ago) sitting in on a symposium at a big univ., and listening to a variety of tones generated by all manner of devices, natural and electronic, from which the attack had been surgically removed. We've heard Robben do this with his volume pedal, as well as masters such as Roy Buchanan. The upshot is that, once the attack is gone, everybody sounds much more homogeneous.

Number 2: No instrument, let alone combination of guitar and amp, is going to sound nearly the same in the hands of two different players. When you are talking about players of the abilities of Robben, a whole new dynamic emerges. Even a good player often can't utilize the palette of tones available in a Dumble. (And don't forget there are nearly
the same number of pots hidden inside the chassis as are apparent on the control panel- and it matters how they are all set.)

In short, I think of a Dumble as a "hot ship", a machine that a novice will need plenty of time to learn and may not have the ability to ever master. This brings a story to mind. I remember a Spanish guitarist of moderate abilities bringing a guitar to a German luthier of my acquaintance. The guy was all depressed because he thought the guitar (made by another good friend) had "died." It seemed that, no matter how he flailed at this box, it refused to make him sound like Segovia. Later that month Pepe Romero was visiting and tried the guitar. Amazingly, Pepe found no morbid qualities whatsoever.

It's all about the touch.

Dave

[BlueRunner]

OK, Dave, Mr. Slim on the Titanic. Welcome aboard! And thanks for joining us.

But now I'm intrigued. Just who and where are you? What sort of lutheriean work do you do? Repairs, custom guitars, other instruments? Would I spot you in one of the photos in an issue of the GAL's "American Lutherie" magazine?

And I'm definitely not even on the same planet as Romero, but sometimes one or another of my guitars will seem to have no tone, and a week later it sounds as if its $300 Guitar Center genes got spliced with a prewar Martin. Same fingers, same room, but maybe my own feelings are different.
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- BlueRunner

[Bluelobster]

Even without attack you can tell it's Robben Ford or Steve Hillage or Roy Buchanan or Jeff Beck or Larry Carlton or Jeff Beck playing.
We still have the "core" of the note , the "human signature", the audio DNA.
And i am with blue runner : who the hell are you ? a strange newbie doing symposiums, i am all impressed.

[JohnnyZ]

Titanic Dave, if you are in the Boston area, I have a couple of guitars that need servicing...