Robben Ford Discussion

[Les]

Although I agree that a lot of the tonal characteristics are based upon the guitarist (attack, style, phrasing, technique, etc), I also believe that Dumble and Dumble inspired amps can certainly aid in obtaining the "perfect tone".

Dumble and Dumble inspired amps have a thick, fat bottom end, creamy mids and a harmonic bloom that is incredible. Those sounds help the player "connect" with the amp. The more a player connects with the amp/sounds, the more creative they are and thus the better they sound.

It is also a style thing too... There are certain guitar players that I do not like listening to simply because I can't stand their sound! They might be good technically, but I can't get passed the *lack of tone*.

[Aeolian]

Further rumminations on the holy grail "Robbentone". Back in the day, Robben was playing spruce archtops (most of the time) instead of the more conventional solid body guitars. Even though they lack sustain (somewhat compensated for by cranking the amps into distortion) the essential character of the instrument's timbre is different. There is more energy around the fundamental frequency of the note compared to the overtones that give it the character of an electric guitar. The story as I understand it was that Dumble drove over the hill from Santa Cruz and heard Robben playing on the peninsula though these rigs, and then went home and played with amp voicing to get a similar timbre out of conventional guitars. This is similar to the more recent efforts of Alf Hermida to reproduce what he heard on Robben's records with his own hands and conventional guitars. Interestingly, even though Robben also uses a great deal of personal technique to achieve the timbre he is looking for, in both cases, when he found the Dumble and the Zendrive, he found them to his liking. The voicing was going in the direction that he wanted.

A bit of my own personal experience. I've never been comfortable playing single coil guitars because they sound thin to me on stage. I can play them at home or record with them, but the balance of fundamental to overtone seems too biased toward overtones, and the fundamental note seems lost. I don't know how many times I've seen folks turn up the highs and use bright guitars so that it will "cut though". On stage, you can hear the notes, but 30 feet or more back in the club, all you hear are overtones. You can't understand a note that is being played. Just this thin ice pick whine. The higher a frequency is, the more directional it is so the greater the proportion of higher frequency overtones with distance. Cranking up the bass or using a 4-12 doesn't help. You get low frequency thump and sub-harmonics of the note, but the essential note is lost. Because recordings are close miked, the balance that makes it on a record is much better. But for years, guitarists have been trying to get that kind of sound live. Back in the late 70's I played a cranked Polytone MiniBrute. It was unique in that it had active tone circuits and actually was flat. Around the time I developed the notion that Fender and other conventional amps used the tone circuits to restore gain (I now understand that it's related to the loading of the turn over points for the tone circuits). When you turn them all the way down, the amp becomes much quieter. So that turning them up to 5 (or the common standard of 7) resulted in a sound that was boosted at the top and bottom and was no longer flat. The overtones became out of balance with the fundamental notes frequency. That was what most people were used to, but it never sounded as balanced live as it did on record. By contrast, the Polytone actually was pretty flat and sounded the same more or less regardless of where you stood. It was funny, as big name touring acts would come down to Waikiki after their arena shows and we would let them sit in. I would stand in the back of the room as the guitarist would start soloing and watch as he tried to get more of the familiar highs to "cut though". They would all go though a routine of switching to the bridge pickup and then stepping on the wah pedal. Now if you try to solo with the wah pedal all the way down on a Super Reverb, all you are going to get in the back of the room is high frequency hash. But that rig still sounded like notes. Unfortunately that amp was later stolen and Polytone adultrated their circuits to make their amps sound more conventional.
You can alter the balance of fundamental to overtone by overloading the acoustic space with fundamental. Several full Marshall stacks in the Filmore will accomplish this. An early holy grail. That full and complete sound. But getting this at more reasonable volumes sets up a new holy grail. So, in the 70's, single coil guitars became almost extinct. Working in a music store that sold Fender, we were getting killed by the Gibson dealer up the street. You couldn't give Strat's away. Until I caught on to the then new development of putting brass parts and the new DiMarzzio hot pickups on them to make them sound more solid and more like Gibsons. I bet there were folks in Fender stores all over the country who were thankfull for DiMarzzio and the brass bridge makers for finally making them able to sell guitars. Fender even came out with "The Strat", a factory version of what all us poor folks we doing to try and keep up with the thicker timbre of Gibson instruments.
While all this is going on, Robben is using archtops and developing his technique to get even more fundamental centered timbres, and Dumble is in his garage voicing amps to do the same thing. Robben later works with Dan Smith to put a spruce top on a solidbody guitar to recapture some of that more centered archtop timbre.
Then the fatefull day when Robben sees this oddball amp in Jackson Browne's studio and trys it. The confluence of two people after the same thing. A timbre dominated by the fundamental frequency of the note, but with a full complement of complex and rich harmonics. People, including Dumble himself, had played the amps but didn't have Robben's techique. Robben had the techique but not the amp. Put both together and something unique comes out. A holy grail achieved. A full and centered timbre together will subtlties in overtones, response and dynamics that had been mutually exclusive up till then. Anyone like me, without benefit of the technique or the equipment, who have been struggling to get those attributes is stunned. Since the amp is relatively obscure, it gets immediately branded as the magic potion. Thus all the Dumble fascination that Daved has to deal with.
But as for Robben, I think that he is just one of the folks who wants the guitar to sing like a horn or a voice (obviously one of the most successful at accomplishing that). That is what he hears the instrument as potentially capable of and what he strives for. I consider it a musical approach. This voice like characteristic just fits and sounds musical to me. More musical than other, equally valid in their own right, approaches. Each person balances the attributes of something according to their own taste and concept. In the musical realm some people zero in on the notes that are being played, regardless of how fluidly or lack of same they are being played, or how they sound. Then you have something like Abercrombie's playing on the Dreams record. Very clever and theoretically inventive but unlistenable to me because of the sound and phrasing. Other people lock into the phrasing and "feel" of someone's playing. And will tolerate endless repetition of the same notes and licks because that is secondary to the "feel". In my own little world, I've always focused on musical expression as primary. And the sound of the instrument plays into this. This focus means that I don't put the effort others do into learning theory or facility. I'd never be accused of playing interesting licks or of being some amazing technician. But I have always had a reputation for getting "good tone". Which to me meant getting the note out there first. The fundamental frequency of the note. Back in my Polytone days I would turn down the tone controls of Fenders to 1 or 2. On more than one occasion, the amps ower would say "Man, I don't know how you get that tone" as they came back up and turned the knobs back to 7.
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[Red Suede]

Robben has achieved a balance of time, harmony, and note selection, along with a good tone that makes him a true improviser, for me. Pre worked out lines and scales over a tune don't really define true improv for me. Listen to Robben, it almost always sounds fresh and new, which means he is creating on the spot. When you understand even basic harmony, you break the bounds of being categorized, which is why Robben can go from Kiss to Miles with no problem, because your main concern is now about the musical style, and not the notes. Knowing harmony, you'll know the right notes to play. The feel and form of music you're playing now becomes the issue.

[titanicslim]

BlueRunner- and all others- Thanks for the warm welcome!

Typically, I have come down sick as a dog as soon as I arrive on the scene. My name is Dave Riggs and I mainly make acoustic guitars, carved-top, although lately I admit to having become almost totally obsessed with making amps- especially those of the "Stumble Overboard" variety.

I'm semi-retired now and, as I said, can barely sit erect for the time being. I hope to be up and around a bit more like my old self soon, and plan to be visiting this vicinity more than somewhat. And yes, you will find numerous of my ramblings and criticisms of others' efforts in the pages of (mostly old) issues of American Lutherie. But I really need to contribute more...

Finally a pack of suspects with the same musical tastes as my own! Very scary...

Davy

[Buffaloe]

I don't like every single tone I've heard come from Robben, but there are many that I love. I've heard him with the most incredible sparkly clean tones, and horrible buzzy overdriven tones. I've heard rich, thick, saxaphone like tones and dull, lifeless tones. One thing I've never heard from Robben is phrasing I didn't like or thought was pedestrian. I've never heard one run or solo that I thought was too much or too little, and when the OD tone is right, it is to me "Robbens" perfect tone.

Robben could play through anything and the phrasing will still come through.
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[Aeolian]

I was listening to Eric Johnson recently, someone with a reputation for "tone" and a personal attention to "tone". One thing about Eric's "tone", at least the overdriven tones, is that they are somewhat static. That is, the tone is constant from one note to another. There is a great deal of processing going on. Blending of various pedals and amp voicings. The overall result is a very thick and singing tonality often referred to a the "violin" tone. Somewhat akin to Clapton's "woman" tone. Which was achieved by rolling off the tone knob on the bridge pickup. In fact most of these benchmark "tones" involve a combination of brightness and treble reduction. Clapton's bridge pickup with the tone rolled off, Erics Strat with the tone slightly rolled off and the Chandler pedal rolling off some more, Robben's bridge pickup with his hands making a darker tone.

In formal training on an instrument, one of the elements is called "tone production". Training and adjustment in technique in order to produce a desired timbre. Usually a full and melodious sound rather than a sharp or grating sound. It doesn't matter whether it's a trumpet or a violin, beginners make all kinds of awful noises, and first chair symphonic players tend to produce a fairly uniform full and pleasant sound. I'll bet Robben was exposed to "tone production" work in the band room at school before he ever took up the guitar. Learning sax, beyond just putting your fingers here, and blowing there, involves both tone production and intonation. Very subtle things that take a lot of ear, and the ability to close the loop between what you are hearing and miniscule adjustments of your technique.

Now in the pop ideom, all bets are off. Different timbres are part of the landscape. The pop ideal is to be different, to break new ground. So sharp and awkward tonalities, like say Neil Young, work because he put them together in a musical context that was different and spoke to people. Those sharp tones and angular playing fit with the protest lyrics and the vibe of the times. Someone playing with a sweet and lyrical voice might sound nice, but it wouldn't carry the same impact. I remember all the grief Mark Farner got because he had a very pure tenor, rather than some raspy, smokey, blues shouter voice. It wasn't rock and roll like Robert Plant or the other screamers.

Back to Daved's originally question and Robben. I think that Robben took that esthetic of formal instrument playing with him when he picked up the guitar. And looked at the sound of the guitar as an equal part in the attraction as what was played on it. That first record with Boomfield on it has wonderful tone. The cut Robben often plays at clinics, "Blues With A Feeling" has these grab you by the collar biting but still solid tones, along with very full and mellow sliding chord sounds in between the vocal lines. Mike makes full use of the guitar and the sounds he can get from it. What a benchmark to start from. So, you have this very musically talented individual who wants to make the guitar communicate like that. And as he progresses though his musical development, he doesn't sacrifice tone production, it is an integral part of the musical presentation. Lack of attention to the tone sounds incomplete. Like a player that only learned one scale. A dimension is missing. They may have very creative note selection, or maybe very musical phrasing, but something is missing. It does make it harder to listen to than a more complete player. Just as someone who is missing some other element (like musical vocabulary, or phrasing) is less enjoyable to listen to. Escpecially for someone who has put the effort into becoming a complete player. They are more sensitive to the completness of other players.
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[Vinni Smith]

Daved,

Thanks for this post. I have enjoyed reading everyone's opinions and especially your probing questions about our quest for "TONE". If it makes you feel any better, I personally don't think Robben's tone is The Perfect Tone. Don't get me wrong, I like it but I like Frampton's or May's tones just as well and maybe a bit more at times. I like more of a singing tone on the top end of the spectrum. Something I personally think a Dumble just does not deliver. So don't get your panties in a wad!!! ; ^ )

I think what makes a perfect tone, in reality, is whether or not it allows the artist to make the statement they are trying to say. Just like an actor or actress. It is as much how they say lines as what they say. A great actor usually has a great speaking voice as well. If Dustin Hoffman sounded like Tom Selleck, then Rainman just would not have gone over as well as it did. If Forest Gump had the voice of Zoolander, HMMMM. Am I expressing that correctly? So, in this way, the perfect tone is very relative to what you are doing and what you are trying to do. If it is working and delivering, then it is perfect for that place in time and attempt.

Now, I also need to say that I do not want all of the great tones I have heard over the years at my fingertips to choose from. Just too confusing and distracting for me. However, when I play a guitar part, I want the tone that helps me speak. If I am pissed off, I want that tone to convey that. If I am laughing, that guitar better be laughing for me or I will go buy another rig that will. There are a lot of tones out there and to call one the "Perfect" one is unfortunate indeed.

Now, I said all that, please let me say this. I only play with one clean tone and one lead tone. That is it. That is what I like and it is what makes me play my best to express myself. That works for me. It may not work for others. But that is ok as well. I like to hear Batten, Beck and Johnson. I enjoy what they do with their gear. I truely do. But that is just not me to use 100 different tones. I am confident we all vary in this aspect.

I am the maker and designer of The V-Pick. I came up with this design back in the 80's. As a young man, my quest at that time was to sound like Brian May. Fat, Fat, Fat. That is all that mattered in my mind. That is still what is important to me and that is why I am still playing my V-Picks to this day, however, as good as I think my tone is I sure would not want to hear every guitar player out there trying to sound like Vinni Smith. Nor would I expect them to want to. First of all, that would be sad for them and ludicrous as well, but it also would be extremely boring!

And let's just be honest. I could play with Robben's guitar and setup and would not sound like him any more than the man on the moon would. And visa versa. If he played my rig, he would still sound like Robben, not me. Which brings up a good question in my mind, why would we want to sound like each other??? We all have our heroes but how sad it would be if in the end of our quest, we sounded like them and not like us.

Daved, in my mind there is no Perfect Tone or perfect player. Robben is incredible yes. So is Frampton and May and Demeola and Carlton. They're all great. However, they are all so different, how could a person say, that one is better? Nonsense.

Just my 2 cents worth. Thanks again Daved for this post. BTW, I got the chance to meet you and spent the entire weekend around you in Reno a few years back. I think very highly of you and consider you top notch.

Cheers. Do good things,

vinni smith
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[paul c]

I've been very fortunate in that my teacher always made a point of addressing tone production, so I think I can sound like me through most things. That said, a good rig makes it much easier.....

Sometimes, a tone that sounds average on it's own is exactly what's required for the mix - check out Leo Nocentelli, Robbie Robertson...

Sometimes, I can listen to a bad sound if the playing is good - Joe Louis Walker, for instance...

Sometimes, a very recognizeable tone can mean you can't really fit in to a situation outside of your own comfort zone...Eric Johnson being one....

Tone is in the fingers....compare and contrast how good Robben sounded on his guitars last night and how different Steve Winwood sounded to him.

[Vinni Smith]

I too am a big advocate that most of our tone is in the fingers. Not 100% though. Probably 65/25.

Let's put it this way, 20 years ago Robben had basically the same sound. Whether he plays a Fender or a Baker or a Les Paul, the sound is in the general area. Even the Tele has Robben's tone. You can just tell it is him playing. I believe if you put Jimmy Page and Peter Frampton in the same room with there own rigs, had them swap guitars and amps, they would generally sound the same as with their own setup- There will be some difference, of course but that is the 35% I was speaking of earlier.

I believe that most of our tone is in our hands my friends.

vinni

www.v-picks.com
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[richardmca]

Saw RF last night in a small hall in Somerset (he signed my LP Deluxe too - ) and I think I understood something about his playing and tone that I hadn't realised before. I wonder what other people might think about this, but it seemed to me Robben likes a bit of fight from his guitars. You know some guitars just lie down and let you do anything you want with them, and others really make you work for it (I give up with those!). Anyway, I was standing right at the edge of the stage so I got a very good view, and RF started off playing the new Japanese one (Sakashka? 'scuse my ignorance) which, as one or two others have noted, sounds pretty bone-china brittle.

Of course RF rode this and made some great music with it, with beautiful projection and clarity, but I could imagine a lot of players struggling with that tone. There was nowhere to hide with it, and when he fluffed a note or two, it showed. But, I got the impression he relished that challenge, like a skilled driver might enjoy mastering a cranky gearshift and a vicious clutch on an old Ferrari.

Part of the buzz from last night for me was watching him wring musicality out of an instrument that seemed a little unwilling. It seemed to give his playing an extra articulation and excitement – to use the motoring analogy again, the kind of buzz you get from watching a race driver wrestling right on the edge with a car that constantly wants to head for the shrubbery: much more exciting that the guy who puts in lap after faultless lap.

Well this is just an impression I got - don't know if it's true or borne out by the technical stuff like action height, string gauge, etc. But great players do seem to look for a challenge to keep it real. I think I heard John McLaughlin saying something to the effect that he sometimes looks for new fingerings for a phrase that he can already play, in order to make playing it less easy for himself. Didn't Coltrane use a really hard reed that made it very difficult to control the sound and avoid squeaking? But he wanted the tone he got from it, and maybe the challenge too.

I get bored by guitarists who whizz around the fretboard seeming to have it all their own way. Seeing someone who is a musician to the core really digging in to make it fly is much more exciting. Maybe if RF's playing ('tone') sounds like every note is individually sculpted, it's because he's having to chisel each one out of some pretty hard marble??
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'Think of a note, then don't play it' - Miles Davis on the art of improvisation. Or, as adapted for my own use: 'Think of a note, then realise you can't play it.'

[Aeolian]

[Phil T]

[kirk95]

All I know is....

when I hear it, I know it.....

Few even get it!

Robben's got it... BIG TIME!
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[elizabeth]

I second that emotion!

Speaking of the letter T...Happy Turkey Day, everyone. My favorite holiday, as Hallmark hasn't quite gotten their greasy little paws all wrapped around it, yet. A great time to be with friends and family, not to mention remembering how fortunate we are...and the very clear message the recent elections have sent.

May your worst troubles be turkey that is too dry.

Much love to all of you...I hope you haven't forgotten me. I'm working so hard these days, I barely have time to check in...I think I have to sit down and do some serious time management. You know what they say about all work and no play...

love, elizabeth
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[Aeolian]