Robben Ford Discussion

[richardmca]

Hello. My first post here, and nothing to do with RF directly (though I'm looking forward to seeing him this Friday in a small room in Somerset, UK). Excuse me if this is not quite the right place to post this, but I was interested to note that Daved works on Derek Trucks' SGs. Wish I had Daved's shoulder to cry on then!

I just got a new Custom Shop VOS SG 61 RI etc etc, which I bought over the net (are you laughing already?) and I feel like I made a big mistake. I can't get a tone I like out of it, it feels unresponsive and unwilling under my fingers, and it just looks like I bought the wrong guitar altogether. Maybe it's just an out-and-out rocker: it seems to want to SHOUT all the time. OK, I wanted an SG Custom because I've always liked the looks and because a player I very much admired (Ollie Halsall) used one a lot and made some great sounds with it, often in a jazzy vein. This is not a sensible motivation for buying a guitar I know, but I thought I might get lucky.

I should have learned my lesson when I bought the guitar of my life twenty years ago - a wine red 72 LP Deluxe - which I found after a day of playing 40 or more other Les Pauls, none of which did anything for me at all. The same probably applies to SGs: there are some you'd like, and others you wouldn't. I don't know whether to try to tweak this one until it feels more like something I want to play, or adapt my playing, or accept that it's a different sort of guitar and use it differently (slide?), or just give up and sell the blasted thing. Anyone had a similar experience with a new guitar (or SG) and managed to work through it?

Enjoying the forum BTW - full of informative stuff.
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'Think of a note, then don't play it' - Miles Davis on the art of improvisation. Or, as adapted for my own use: 'Think of a note, then realise you can't play it.'

[BlueRunner]

richardmca: I'm the last guy to ask about SG's, not having even played one (and a band mate's at that) since high school days (mid-1960's). I am, however, most pleased to be the FIRST guy to welcome you to the best BBS in the world. Very nice to have you aboard, and we look forward to lots of interesting posts from you. Hope you enjoy this site as much as the rest of us do.
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- BlueRunner

[richardmca]

Thanks for the welcome, BlueRunner. Yes, I rather think there won't be a great rush to advise on my SG conundrum. I am beginning to realise it's not really the guitar for the sophisticates who inhabit these parts, and their dusky bluesy/jazzy ways, of which I thoroughly approve. javascript:emoticon('')

So I won't bother asking this forum for pickup suggestions for a Flying V either!

(I haven't really got one of those, before I completely get myself a reputation here)
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'Think of a note, then don't play it' - Miles Davis on the art of improvisation. Or, as adapted for my own use: 'Think of a note, then realise you can't play it.'

[nineacres]

I've had 3 SGs over the years and I love 'em. I find the action superb. I suppose what puts some people off SGs is the thinness of the body and the resulting top-heavy neck and headstock. That's never put me off though. I've always liked the rasping tone of the bridge pickup and the clarity of the neck pickup at lower volumes, especially on one I had with P90s.

What exactly is causing the problems with yours? Is the action heavy, high tension on the strings? Is it too high? Does the problem lie with the pickups? Also, what amp are you using?
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"Creativeness often consists of merely turning up what is already there. Did you know that right and left shoes were only thought up a little more than a century ago?" - Bernice Fitz-Gibbon 1894-1982

[richardmca]

Hello Nineacres. It's not the thin body as such or the neck/body balance, which seems perfect on mine. (The SG Custom maybe has more body weight than some SGs, with the three pickups and that big lump of tin for the trem mechanism).

The action when I got it was set according to factory specs at 5/64ths (bass) and 3/64th (treble) at the 12th fret - maybe a bit higher than I like, but not much. I dropped it as much as I could, and gave the trussrod an eighth of a turn. It came with Gibson Britewire 10s, which seemed very hard to me, so I swapped those for 9s, like I have on my LP. I have 12s on my jazz box, so it's not that I object to heavy strings altogether - but I play the jazzer with a completely different touch anyway. But there is something about the action and the feel of the neck on the SG that I am not getting on with. I don't know why, and I'm struggling to pin down the cause, but with the same strings on my LP and on the SG, the SG just seems so much less willing under the fingers. I really feel I have to dig in to produce a sound, and my slithery sloppy technique, which I can get away with on the LP, doesn't work. So I end up playing hard all the time, with the dynamics compressed into a narrow band, and I find I can't get any nuance or subtlety when soloing. Yes, string tension does seem a little higher than on the LP, and I can't understand why that should be - same scale length, same strings. Although I can get on OK with a tele or a strat, which generally I find has more tension.

The pickups are another thing. With the Custom, there are three and this VOS model has 57 Burstbuckers, that are supposed to be a close approximation of how they made them when I was two years old - unequal windings on the bobbins to give a more edgy sound. The wiring system gives neck, middle and bridge, and bridge. No neck and bridge combination. The neck pickup has a very bassy, muddy sound, almost lacking in treble altogether. I've dropped the bass end of the pickup right down, but there's still no clarity unless I cut the bass drastically on the amp - which has consequences for the other two settings. In the middle position, there are some good rock tones, but you have to drop the middle pickup quite a bit to allow space for picking, which means you have to drop the bridge pickup a proportionate amount to keep a balance between them. The bridge starts to give some treble bite, and the tone control gives some interesting voicings to the sound. But for my taste, there is no 'air' in any of the sounds this guitar makes - they are all 'closed', as if the thing is going through a part-open wah-wah pedal. This could be the pickups (my ear is probably skewed by the very open, articulate sound of the mini-hums on my LP Deluxe), but I suspect it's the fundamental tonal character of the body that is mostly responsible. (That's why I was interested that Daved had taken the trem off Derek Trucks' SG - maybe all that metal contributes something I don't like to the sound - it's not as if it's a very useable trem anyway). Acoustically, the guitar has this closed, bottled-up sound, and a brittle attack that makes me think of a banjo. The body doesn't resonate in a way that makes the notes sing - hence the feeling I get that playing with a heavy touch is the only option with it. That's why I'm wondering if it's really just a rocker - good for power chords and Stones riffs, and maybe some dirty country blues (if it wasn't for that middle pickup getting in the way of your picking).

FWIW I'm playing it through modified Fender Pro Juniors. I use a preamp for tone control with these, but because I am struggling to understand how to deal with this guitar's natural tone, I'm not using the preamp at the moment, just trying to deal with the basics first.

Overall, I'm just baffled by it. It doesn't seem to like me!

In your experience with the SG, did you find that it suited a particular kind of music or style of playing?
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'Think of a note, then don't play it' - Miles Davis on the art of improvisation. Or, as adapted for my own use: 'Think of a note, then realise you can't play it.'

[nineacres]

From what you say I would begin to suspect the vibrato setup as perhaps the cause of the string tension. None of my SGs had a vibrato and so I can't comment from experience. Daved would certainly be better suited to give an opinion on that. As for the pickups, Burstbuckers aren't everybody cup on tea and they could well be contributing to your overall poor opinion of the guitar. Trouble is that it's not a cheap option to prove otherwise

I found the SG well-suited to blues\rock or rock. Is it a "lighter" version of the Les Paul? Well, that kind of describes my impressions of its sound.
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"Creativeness often consists of merely turning up what is already there. Did you know that right and left shoes were only thought up a little more than a century ago?" - Bernice Fitz-Gibbon 1894-1982

[richardmca]

[nineacres]

My current toy cupboard includes:

Fender Strat Plus (with Dimarzio HS-2 neck HS-3 Middle, Fender Custom Shop 54 Bridge)
Fender AMStd Telecaster (with Bill Lawrence 280TN and 290TB)
Heritage H-535 (with Joe Barden Two-Tone humbuckers)
Tokai Love Rock LS80F (I've left the neck PU stock for the moment, SD SH-1 59 Bridge)
Ovation Elite Standard 6868

Amps:
Peavey Classic 50 2x12
Music Man 210 65W
Marshall 50W accoustic

Although I wouldn't part with any of these guitars, I still miss my SGs.
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"Creativeness often consists of merely turning up what is already there. Did you know that right and left shoes were only thought up a little more than a century ago?" - Bernice Fitz-Gibbon 1894-1982

[richardmca]

I'm so out of touch, I know the guitars that begin with F and the amp that begins with M, but the rest is a mystery to me.

So, would you try to play in a Robben Ford vein with an SG?

I don't think I could get started at all on it, but I must say it does cut the mustard as a hairy rock machine once you wind up the volume. Maybe I'll stick with it and try to reach an understanding...
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'Think of a note, then don't play it' - Miles Davis on the art of improvisation. Or, as adapted for my own use: 'Think of a note, then realise you can't play it.'

[richardmca]

Nineacres, a funny thing happened over the past few days. I picked up the SG again and loved it! It actually helped talking to you I think, but I have definitely got an odd relationship with this guitar. I really don't quite see eye to eye with it yet, but I'm beginning to feel I can get something out of it in a different vein from my other guitars. It really asserts itself tonally, that's for sure.

But, just for a total contrast, how about this. I've been on a bit of a spree and bought a '94 Fender Robben Ford Ultra Elite thingy - number 004! Unbelievevably wonderful to play - right out of the box. So responsive and lively feeling. I've only had a couple of hours' playing time so far, but I can already feel myself developing a more varied touch with this instrument - because of its sensitivity and range I suppose. I LOVE IT!!!!!

The SG had better behave itself or it's not going to get a look in...
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'Think of a note, then don't play it' - Miles Davis on the art of improvisation. Or, as adapted for my own use: 'Think of a note, then realise you can't play it.'

[bluzboyy]

I know exactly what you mean by many of the newer Gibson's wnating to "shout" all the time.

My LP Standard, which is a very nice example, took awhile for me to warm up to. I knew it was going to come around though and here's why. I loved playing it unplugged from the word go. It turns out it was the electronic side of the LP that was not sitting with me. RS Guitarworks electronics upgrades, and about 5 different sets of pickups later and I love this guitar. The key was that the guitar was lively accoustically. It felt fine and sounded lively that way. Many LP's including historics that I've tried were kinda dead. If the guitar is cool unplugged, then you know it's just a matter of finding the right electronic stew to let it speak "plugged in".

For my[/i] guitar I settled on WCR Fillmores. It was close between those and the WCR Darkbursts. In my 335 the Gibson 57 classics sound great.
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I'm not sayin'...I'm just sayin'

[richardmca]

That's interesting. I kind of thought...since I was buying a super-duper Custom Shop Gibson etc etc...that the much-touted pickups would be pretty damn good. Not much experience in this regard - I usually buy guitars that have been round the clock many times.

I wonder how much the electrics bed in and improve over time? Maybe your LP might have improved/mellowed, given 15 years or so?

I find it interesting to put the Fender RF up against the SG Custom and compare the pups. Well there's no comparison really, the Gibson sounds pretty weak and thin. Even in single coil mode the SD-equipped RF punches them out for dynamic range and nuance.

I think you put your finger on it though with the unplugged sound. Damn right. That's where the SG is struggling! Still I'm getting used to it - it's kind of like adjusting to skimmed milk after growing up on full-cream (the old LP) and zabaglione (the RF)!
_________________
'Think of a note, then don't play it' - Miles Davis on the art of improvisation. Or, as adapted for my own use: 'Think of a note, then realise you can't play it.'

[richardmca]

BTW, just as an afterthought to that last posting, I played a bog-standard SG of no great vintage belonging to a friend of my son the other day. He paid a quarter of the price I paid for my six-stringed Cadillac, and it was a better guitar - more alive to the touch and toneful, even unplugged. Ho hum.
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'Think of a note, then don't play it' - Miles Davis on the art of improvisation. Or, as adapted for my own use: 'Think of a note, then realise you can't play it.'

[bluzboyy]

[bluzboyy]

Oh yeah about the pots. I found that the pots I got from RS Guitar works had a far better taper to them giving me better control over my guitar. The original pots seemed to go from "off" to "on" with a big leap in the first quarter turn of the knob. The pots from RS give me a smoother more gradual taper from 0-10 so I can really work the mild OD tones from clean to mean easier. Sme problem with the pots on my ES-335. I'd have already changed them out escept I'm a little hesitant to try the fishing game throught the F-Holes.
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I'm not sayin'...I'm just sayin'