I, myself, love Robben's tone. No question about it. And it's easier to try and home in on someone elses tone than you're own. The thing is, tone identifies you as a player and is apart of you. In my opinion anyway. Let's face it, you hear a Robben Ford song and you know its him. It's not only the tone, it's the way he plays, phrases etc and most importantly, his hands. The dude uses a baker twin humbucker and telecaster through a dumble amp! Two totally different guitars! Either way you know it's him!
I wouldn't waste time looking for a Robben tone! Spend the time playing and finding your own!
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Aeolian - previous pots
Just read your most recent post in this thread and thought it was a truly excellent analysis of the tone/timbre thing. It was a well judged and presented argument for using Robben's and other famous musicians' techniques as a springboard into your own, personal style and it absolutely captures what is going on with my playing right now.
I know that we can all get a bit anal at times over the tone/technique/gear mix (!) but sometimes, you need someone to articulate a particular point in a certain way and bang! you have a new lease of life.
As I get older (47) it becomes increasingly hard to find things that take me back to the genuine buzz and vibe that I used to get as an 18 year old playing guitar. Imaging then, the excitement and sheer invigoration of reading someone else's post and knowing that it will spur you on to try some new licks and progressions and maybe walk a little, in the shadow of the people we respect and admire. To think that I might get a sound and a picking style that is evocative of a Robben, Jeff Beck or whoever and apply this to stuff I have created - wow, that is quite an emotional kicker.......
I can't afford a Dumble and the Fuchs is well beyond my current budget but I have some sweet guitars, some lovely amps and a whole bag-full of pedals. I can get the essence of Robben, a sprinkle of Jeff, a shade of Jimmy, a touch of Eric and the rest, as you would say, is down to the hands. Incidentally, a guy in my local store (Sound Control, Leeds, UK) got me thinking about picking styles and ever since, I have found a major boost comes from dropping my pick and using my thumb and fingers. I can play faster and better this way and in the process, it takes off a lot of that sharp edge and bite - I call it my banjo-picking technique!
Some threads get me talking and this one certainly did - hope you didn't get bored reading it. Check out the offending picking style at www.soundlcik.com/davidmillion and look for a track called 'Take your time'
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject:
Hmmmm.... I just had an interesting thought.
Maybe I'm way off base here, but...
Isn't a guitar player asking what gear he should use to sound or play like Robben just about as potentially futile as a vocalist asking what microphone he should use to sound or sing like Michael McDonald?
Doesn't matter what gear they use or what tune they perform, they are always going to sound identifiably like their own uniquely individualistic selves... and this, by the way, apllies also to the one trying to emmulate the other. Thus, the student, it would follow, would be far more productive in focusing primarily on discovering, identifying, and developing his or her own 'voice' and/or style.
'Twould seem to me that gear doth not the artist make, but rather, how the artist doth use the gear at hand.
But then, perhaps I am just expressing in another way, what HumbleDumble and Millibob are both saying?
Perhaps a good example would be the 60's signature tune "Hey Joe".
HUGELY popular in those days, absolutely every band performed the song live in their repertoire and every recording band put the song on their album and, with slight & basically insignificant variations, they all played it pretty much the same way as the band they heard it from (most likely either the Leaves, Love, or the Byrds) which meant, great song tho it was, it quickly became uninspired & boring filler ("We do it our way, with vibrato!"... "Yeah but we do it completely differant, with reverb!".... "Oh, yeah? Well we do it like no one else, with a Farfisa organ in it! Beat that!"... yeah, yeah, ho-hum, *yawn*)
That is, until Jimi Hendrix came along, learned the chord progression and then totally reworked the song to his own unique approach, concept, sound, and style... thereby recreating the tune in a manner previously unheard or unimagined, which virtually wiped out the mass memory of the way that song was originally arranged, performed, and recorded.
It's truly amazing to me how many people believe Jimi wrote the song or that there is any other way of playing it than his (Joe Satriani being a case in point. You should have seen the stunned & amazed look on his face the first time I played him Love performing the song's original arrangement! Priceless...LOL!).
Thank god, Hendrix wasn't at all interested in sounding or playing like anyone but himself.
(And personally, tho I love Hendrix and totally love and admire his take on the song, "Hey Joe" will always be most fondly remembered by me as performed by the Leaves, with their raw, hard driving powerchord guitars and dissonant harmonica riff... a true garage band classic! LOL)
...Isn't a guitar player asking what gear he should use to sound or play like Robben just about as potentially futile as a vocalist asking what microphone he should use to sound or sing like Michael McDonald?...
Well said.
That analogy is more true than most guitarists will ever acknowledge. Robben manages to sound like "Robben" no matter what guitar or amp he plays through.
It really isn't the tone of the legendary guitarists that captures us, but rather the style and phrasing of gifted players. We rarely, if ever, point to recordings with GREAT TONE but lousy playing.
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Tone is in the ear of the beholder......
Daved - I think you and I are on the same page (oh no, another cliche....LOL). Another analogy for the recent debate is Formula 1 racing cars; every car on the track is pretty much the same, similar engines, similar technology in the brakes, aerodynamics steering etc. And yet some drivers can get so much more out of their machines. I'm content to sit back in the field but know that I'm on the same track as Robben and all the other guys I look up to. My style however is my own and I'm not even sure if I'll even do covers of Robben's material. If I do, it will be my take on things, just like your Hendrix story.
All this debate is helpful though if it gets us thinking about why we are really doing this. A lot of money is spent, many hours are exhausted in practice and 'widdling' and numerous wives roll their eyes in despair, wondering if the grass will ever get cut. I think it's fair to say it's more than just a hobby for most of us and yes, I do want that Robben tone, but only as a lifting off point for my own music. It is also the case that his choice of the Zendrive, RV3 and some other odds and ends (like, er, a Dumble or two) does get you into a certain space (another cliche) where you can start to do some serious playing. The kit does not maketh the player as you say, but it maketh a hell of a difference to how the payer playeth if he or she is suitably inspired by the sounds they are getting.
Joined: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 401 Location: College Station, TX
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:10 am Post subject:
It's a classic! I have it on the first Southside Johnny and the Asbury Jukes album, but it is an old doo wop tune by who knows how many artists before them. Had not thought about it terms of a butcher though!
Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: Cracking up........
Yup, I crack myself up too sometimes - life can be a right old so-and-so and you have to find a way through it all. A guitar and a sense of humour seems to work fine for me.
Now, I wish to bring to your attention a technique I have developed for effectively mic'ing up a guitar amp. I have tested this aproach with some success and you may find a graphic illustration at my central photographic repository, thus:
I thought I'd chime in on this one, just to share a quick story. I was in a local shop, and was trying out a fuchs amp, with my tom anderson. I had some pretty good tones but I'm not anything closde to Robben or anyone else in his league. A friend of mine, a very seasoned player, stopped in the amp room, and told me he liked the sound of the rig. I gave him the guitar, and he proceeded to blow my mind, he made that amp sound more like Robben's dumble than I would have ever thought possible. My point is, I agree whole-heartedly with the other posts, that almost everything depends on the player, and how you manipulate the gear, the latter is so small a part it's almost scary, considering we all spend thousands of dollars and hours and hours of time on that part of it. I, for one, wish I could forget that whole piece of the puzzle for a long while, and focus on the much larger part, getting my playing together.
Just my humble opinion, thanks,
Kurt
Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 14 Location: Sausalito, CA
Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject:
I think there is more than one question here. Matt originally asked a technique question posed as a tone question. Almost everybody has responded to that question IMHO very well. It's in his hands. There are identifiable players out there that most guitarists can tell like the old "Name that Tune" game on TV.
The other question though, is the equipment question. Honestly now, is there anyone on this forum that can't tell the sound of a Fender Stratocaster played through a Fender Deluxe Reverb? Without disagreeing with Daved's post, that's a little different than arguing that one voice cannot emulate another simply by changing the microphone.
Obviously, things get harder when you listen to a clone Strat and a clone DR. But my point is that one can get a head start on Robben's tone with (say) a 2 Rock, Glasman, or Fuchs "D" type amp, a Zendrive and a Tele with a serious makeover and a set of custom wound Lollars.
Having said that, I agree completely that you will NOT sound like Robben when you get all that stuff, but you will be able to experiment with technique and come a lot closer to that tone than you would with (say) a Marshall 1974, a Gretsch Country Gentleman, and an old Dunlop Wah pedal.
Great discussion. It frequently comes up at the ampgarage.
Dan _________________ The last of the Worlds Great Human Beings
Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 7 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:26 am Post subject:
Daved wrote:
Hmmmm.... I just had an interesting thought.
Maybe I'm way off base here, but...
Isn't a guitar player asking what gear he should use to sound or play like Robben just about as potentially futile as a vocalist asking what microphone he should use to sound or sing like Michael McDonald?
This type of question comes up very often. While it is true that people have their own sound -- some happen to have a real cool sound, like RF, others have a bad sound, but in the end we all have our DNA-- I think the question above oversimplifies things a bit. From a pure logical standpoint, one could use the very same argument and say that to sound like say Ritchie Blackmore on "Machine Head," one might as well start off playing a Gibson L5 through a Polytone amp.
To play like someone else, regardless of how much value there is in accomplishing that, one has to sit down and try and copy the other person. To sound like someone else, one also would have to try and copy the other person's approach to the instrument, etc., but using the same gear can only help. I wonder if anyone here would be willing to try to cop the Knoppfler tone (think "Sultans of Swing") using an ES-175 and a Mesa Boogie amp on the lead channel...
Isn't a guitar player asking what gear he should use to sound or play like Robben just about as potentially futile as a vocalist asking what microphone he should use to sound or sing like Michael McDonald?
This type of question comes up very often. While it is true that people have their own sound -- some happen to have a real cool sound, like RF, others have a bad sound, but in the end we all have our DNA-- I think the question above oversimplifies things a bit. From a pure logical standpoint, one could use the very same argument and say that to sound like say Ritchie Blackmore on "Machine Head," one might as well start off playing a Gibson L5 through a Polytone amp.
To play like someone else, regardless of how much value there is in accomplishing that, one has to sit down and try and copy the other person. To sound like someone else, one also would have to try and copy the other person's approach to the instrument, etc., but using the same gear can only help. I wonder if anyone here would be willing to try to cop the Knoppfler tone (think "Sultans of Swing") using an ES-175 and a Mesa Boogie amp on the lead channel...
Gil
I dont think it matters what gear say Robben Ford or whoever uses, they'll never get away from how they sound. And the same for us, whatever we use, we might get close to the sound but not exactly! From a vocalists point of view, some think that a microphone is gonna make you sound better! it doesn't, it simply enhances what you already got and I think that applies to any musician. It's all a matter of taste and preferance. You get a good piece of kit and you get a fresh wave of inspiration!
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