Joined: 05 Aug 2006 Posts: 24 Location: California
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: A Very Cool Thing I Learned From Robben
Since the Robben Ford clinic, I have been working my butt off on the double diminished half/whole tone scale. I think this is an amazing tool that just opens up a whole new realm of guitar playing and I still find it VERY musical, even though it is not in the realm of normal scales.
Anyway, check this out. If you are on the I or tonic chord, I find it very cool to base the scale on the tonic. However, when the IV chord comes along, switch that puppy onto the IV tonic and it gives you a flavor of blues, jazz and fusion all at once. Then doing the same on the V takes you even a bit more over the top but not too much that you have forgotten you are still in your original key.
Now, since this scale repeats itself every 3 frets, you can simply find the arragnement/position/shape of it that you prefer and move it anywhere on the neck you would like, just as you would a diminished chord. It simply starts on a different note of the scale. Do the exact run you did three frets down and now it means and speaks something totally different and you end up on a way diffeent part of the orginal scale for you to resolve back to your original tonic.
Now, here is the coolest thing I have found yesterday. Where ever you are playing this scale on the neck, when the IV chord arrives, just move your position one fret down. This puts you in a great IV feel and so many posibilities now become available. When the I chord comes around again, just move back up one fret. Then, get a load of this, for the V chord you move it up one step from the tonic. Since I stumbled upon these facts yesterday, a whole new world of playing has opened up for me!
Now, please understand, I am not advocating just playing in this scale all the time. You will sound like Skunk Baxter if you did that! My favorite scale and position is still all Pentatonic based. I just like to embelish upon that scale with 6s and flatted 5ths and so on, and now add this half diminished half/whole tone scale in for flavor.
Just thought some of you may be interested in playing around with this. If you come up with anything cool while trying this out, let me know.
vinni
__________________ _________________ Does this guitar make me look fat?
Speaking as a complete ignoramus on all matters pentatonic, catatonic or otherwise, what you describe sounds like just my cup of team but none of the words or numbers make any sense. It would be great if you could post a video of you performing these gymnastics!
Joined: 05 Aug 2006 Posts: 24 Location: California
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject:
Check out this clip from a guy at TGP doing it just after an hour or so after reading my post about this scale. Man, I wish I could pick up on things that fast!
okay, as confirmed busker, I will now see what I can do to mangle a few notes together - we should always be looking out for new stuff! If you check out some of my stuff at www.soundclick.com/davidmillion you'll hear some of my own playing which tends to be rather unadventurous but I'm gradually working my way of of the familiar boxes and into uncharted territory for me......
I really wish I'd learned my scales and could tell a diatonic from a pentatonic.................
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: PLEASE............
......don't take this as spam but I have some lessons up on guitartricks.com, a couple of those are based on Robben's use of the half-tone/whole-tone scale.
It is a paysite however so there are probably cheaper ways to find examples of this concept.
I love the concept personally, it really opens up blues playing and makes your style jump out above straight ahead pentatonics IMHO.
Thanks for posting Vinni, the additional stuff you pointed out has been really useful for me.
Cheers Mr Z. Will keep listening to your link Vinni - I love the way it takes the runs off the beaten track but never so far that you can't find your way back. Matter of practice and feel I suppose. This is what makes playing guitar fun!
Good discussion! This is my first post to this site. I'm really looking forward to reading the other posts, and will hopefully contribute something useful over time.
I like the idea of playing the dim scale over the three chords, sidestepping a semitone for each chord. I was confused at first by Vinnie calling it the diminished/half whole-tone scale - my mind clicked into the diminished/whole tone scale, sometimes known as the superlocrian. Anyway, my misreading helped me stumble across something useful:
Let's say we are playing a blues in A. The dim/WT scale on A is A Bb C Db Eb F G A [not something I would spend four bars on, but it is good to slip it in at bar 4, before the move to the IV chord].
Now, if we take Vinnie's idea of sideslipping for the other chords:
Chord IV - the above scale down one fret is G# A B C D E F# - in other words the Lydian Dominant scale for the chord D7#11.
Chord V - same as Chord IV but two frets higher.
So, the same pattern shifted semitonally gives some really interesting harmonies/runs. Its a little bit 'out', but used sparingly will add some interesting dissonances which can easily be resolved by slipping back into the basic blues scale.
For those who would like to experiment with this pattern, here is my shape starting on A, written out long hand:
Joined: 26 Nov 2003 Posts: 916 Location: Fairhope, AL
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: Helpful
I highlighted both Vinnie and Rob's posts and copied and pasted them into Wordpad and printed them out so I can use them in my practice. Thanks to both of you!
Frank
Joined: 15 Aug 2003 Posts: 234 Location: Hartlepool, U.K.
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:20 am Post subject:
Vinnie - thanks for starting this thread. And also to our friend Rob from Auld Reekie for his input on the superlocrian scale. Isn't it strange, and pleasantly so, how once you start getting immersed in these things, all sorts of other ideas can occur to you. For example, here's what I noticed:
Try playing your usual 12 bar, 3 chord thingy. However, for two beats before changing from I7 to IV9, try inserting I7#5. In the key of A that's two beats of A7#5 - you might like to try 2 bars of this chord to get comfortable with the idea to start with. By the way, a convenient form of A7#5 is: D string - 5th fret, G string - 6th fret, B string - 6th fret, E string - 5th fret. Over this chord try either the A superlocrian scale or the whole tone scale beginning with A. Notice how the two scales fit aroung the chord shape. This a really nice way of briefly "introducing" the D9. It gives the impression that you've just slipped it in. (Millibobs and Johnny Z, stop that silly schoolboy giggling! Don't think I can't see you.)
The same idea applies when going from chord V back to the tonic. This time use E7#9, over which the E superlocrian fits nicely. Try starting this ascending from the E, 9th fret G string, or alternatively, coming down from the top F at the 13th fret of top E and then from D follow the G minor shape down to the G string and on down over.
And if you think about it, you could also do a V - I when approaching the E7#9 by using B7#5 (once again whole tone or superlocrian). This admittedly is a little overkill, but it I find that exaggerating the hell out of something helps it sink into the grey matter.
Also, it's best to have some sort of backing going on while you're doing this. Otherwise you tend to lose the musical sense of it all. I use Band in a Box which works fine for me.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go and lie down in a darkened room for the rest of the weekend ... _________________ "Creativeness often consists of merely turning up what is already there. Did you know that right and left shoes were only thought up a little more than a century ago?" - Bernice Fitz-Gibbon 1894-1982
[In Groundskeeper Willie's voice:] Och aye, that works too. Och, it's endless!
Basically anything will work on a V7 chord, and all the chords are V7s or can be approached by their V7s. Once you start stepping outside, the path fades away quickly. Just don't go so far you lose track of home. Many have stepped out, never to return...
The best thing, ONE of the best things about Robben is his ability to still be melodic and tasteful when he steps outside. It's easy to play notes that just sound weird. Trying to remain soulful is the hard thing. All in my humble opinion, of course.
Following on from my longer first post above, here is an arpeggio which can sound cool in the right place at the right time. It is Root, Major 3rd, 5th, flat 7, natural9, sharp 11, 13.
Blues in A:
Over the A7 - A, C#, E, G, B, D#, F#
Over the D7 - D, F#, A, C, E, G# B
Over the E7 - E, G#, B, D, F#, A#, C#
I'll try to tab it out, and hope it works:
A7 From 6th string:
----------------------------
--------------------4--7-----
-----------------4-----------
--------------5--------------
-------4--7----------------
---5----------------------
D7 From 5th string (move it up two frets for the E7 chord):
I guess this should have been in the theory section...
Anyway, this is just another way of easily stretching the basic blues harmony without getting too out. Another way to think of it is: play a Major triad a tone above the Root. A7 chord? Play an A7 arpeggio and add a B Major arpeggio on top.
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: Schoolboy humour
snicker, snicker, snicker..........I thought the Super Locrian was that car that featured in Back to the Future? All this talk of scales is doing my head in, I am a complete numpty at this stuff and need some DVD's to cop my riffs from. Maybe I'll get in the car and visit Nineacres for some blues lessons!
I can feel some new recordings coming on, so it's a good time to be thinking outside the box a bit and exploring some new ideas. You'd better get in your crap-riff-shelters before the onslaught begins........
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