Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 908 Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:29 am Post subject:
Telefunk's posts set me off, but it is the unkind comments by music critics Thom Jurek, John Metzger, Hal Horowitz and like-minded internet posters that make me angry and defensive.
If you don't like a CD, why spend time writing about it? The world would be a much nicer place if people focused on what brings them happiness vs complaining and criticizing everybody all the time.
If you're the publisher of a magazine or website, act responsibly. Don't take money for an ad placement and then publish an album review that knocks the product.
Lastly, I didn't intend for my post to be a personal attack against Telefunk, or anyone else; and I do acknowledge and respect our differences of opinion. I guess I just had to vent my feelings. _________________ Travelling by train of thought
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: the truth is music
alot of reviews and opinions on the new cd truth. hes an artist making the kind of music he feels represents where he is at this point in his life. crafted songs? yes that is one of the hardest things to do. write a song that touches you makes you remember the words gives you melody and and makes you want to hear it again. riley b king is a perfect example. i challenge any one to go and write good songs. i have done the nashville song writers thing and its hard as hell. its alot easier to play penatonic ideas over a blues. its music plain and simple. enjoy it for what it is.
my hats off to robben well crafted musical cd and plays the sh------it out of the guitar. take care gill
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:29 am Post subject:
Spatzi, I tried getting folks to play "You're gonna be sorry" off Blue Moon because it has a great groove, nice little accents and fits all together really well. If I get back into a blues group, I'll probably try to drag in "Lateral Climb". Like "Misdirected Blues" it has some really cool half step tweaks.
Don't get me wrong, there is some awesome stuff on Truth and it's been in the car for the last two weeks since I got it. I just feel like there's bits and pieces here and there that are either cliched (not typical for Robben) or awkward (also not typical for Robben).
One thing I've noticed since the BlueLine days, is that the songs get better live over time. Playing them over and over again, with top notch musicians working out things over time, the songs become more complete. And the stuff Robben plays over them becomes more insteresting as he settles into the tunes. I really wish there were venues where Robben could work out new tunes on stage and let them mature before recording them. He was playing "Help The Poor" long before TTYD came out. And his arrangement was the result of years of subtle evolution. In the old days, many songs were "road tested". And groups hit the studio knowing exactly what they wanted. There are people who can invent things in the studio and pull it all together on the fly. But Robben seems to be one of those folks who given time to work with something, always seems to be able to refine it into something magical. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Comparing to other artists in the singer/songwriter/ guitar player category, I think that Warren Haynes and Gov't Mule are currently where it's at. I think Warren's songwriting is consistently better than Ford's, he comes up with more memorable hooks and riffs, his guitar playing hasn't been watered down over time, he has far better vocals for this kind of music, his original BAND is still together (this is something that Ford can't seem to do and this is part of the studio problem), and Mule is still kicking out the jams in the STUDIO as well as LIVE. If Ford only released live albums, he'd do more justice to his talent. When I hear his live work, I hear the real thing.
There really aren't too many in this elite category anymore. I've been adding a lot more Mule to my setlist over the years than Ford. There is something about Hayne's playing/singing/band that is so sincere and REAL and salt of the earth, I don't think even an elite musician like Ford can keep up to that level of quality.
It also reminds me of how guys like Gary Moore managed to switch gears mid career and succeed, in spite of the fact that Moore was a better hard rock player than a blues player. Why success was denied Ford, who was a far better blues player than Moore, and playing it far longer, is beyond me. Now we have Ford getting away from the blues, from what he does best, and getting too middle of the road. Like the song says, "it don't make sense." Albums like 'truth' are not going to bring him any closer to a wider audience.
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: comparing guitarist
comparing guitarist seems a bit stupid to me. we all have our different approach and sounds to make the best music we can. ,lets see, take allan holdsworth and scotty anderson. they both play guitar with the same six strings. but yet so different. who is better? not an issue. they do what they do with the style of music that makes them happy. two completely different players... two of my favorites... hell for my money the solo to nowhere man ranks one of the best and then the solo on waiting worlds by scott henderson. play the music. look at it for what its worth. later gill
the challenge : make a cd that captures you as a player and writer and sell and promote it year after year. one hell of a task!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: truth
how can you compare an artist like ford with someone like warren haynes,who's band is playing 70's music[been done before and better by little feat,led zeppelin,allmann bross, etc.].An artist like ford will never sell millions of records,because his music is to sophisticated for general public and is to talented to do the same thing over and over again,but he will always have an audience.ford will always be my number one musician/guitarplayer.He is a true original.And spazi,how about writing your own songs?
Joined: 26 Nov 2003 Posts: 916 Location: Fairhope, AL
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: reviews
Alright guys, this is getting a little heated. Everybody take a deep breath and keep the reviews about the music and not the other reviewers! This has been a great discussion. There a lot of interesting viewpoints here. As for myself, I'm still playing the CD and enjoying it. I think it will be very interesting to see how the songs change as they are played live, too.
Frank
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject:
As far as "keeping a band together", I think Robben is deliberately looking for inspiration. Trying different folks to see how it feels and how things come together. He's long expressed admiration for Kind Of Blue and that kind of "in the moment" playing.
I've been watching the "Back To The Blues" DVD and he talks about Tom and Roscoe and how it's a special thing, how it comes together. But after awhile, I think he started looking for new horizons and hasn't found that magic since. There are times when people who know him well, like Vinnie or Jimmy Earl lock in with where he's going. But it seems like he's deliberately throwing himself in the deep end to see what comes out. Have to hand it to him. The respect he commands and the ability to try playing with all these killer cats. And certain things really work too. It just hasn't found the completeness of that trio with Tom and Roscoe IMHO. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: truth
loek wrote:
how can you compare an artist like ford with someone like warren haynes,who's band is playing 70's music[been done before and better by little feat,led zeppelin,allmann bross, etc.].An artist like ford will never sell millions of records,because his music is to sophisticated for general public and is to talented to do the same thing over and over again,but he will always have an audience.ford will always be my number one musician/guitarplayer.He is a true original.And spazi,how about writing your own songs?
First off, Haynes is practically the sole reason the Allman's are still going today, and it's his efforts that resurrected the practially dead band in the late 80's. They sound better today with him and Trucks than they ever did, imo. Second: I have nothing but respect for Ford, and have been seeing him live since the late 80's. Third: If you can't see that both these guys are birthed from the blues, and that's their namesake/foundation, then you need to do more research. They CAN be compared, and their output can be compared, since they are two of the leading singer/songwriter/players alive today in this genre. By the way, you've heard Ford play with Greg Allman? Sorry to say, it just doesn't cut it like Haynes playing with Greg Allman. I was kind of surprised by that. But this is what A BAND AND COMPATIBILITY achieves that a guest artist, no matter how accomlished, cannot.
It has nothing to do with 'preference', it has to do with consistent quality over time. Ford is no longer consistent in his output, at least not in the studio. His live output consistently outshines the studio efforts in almost every regard, on every song. Take any live version of a Ford song and compare to studio. It's almost night and day. Some of the best live shows I've ever seen were in small clubs with the blue line, and they matched anything the Mule could do on stage as far as improv. This was because Ford meshed with that band, and it showed. They spent time road testing, and they got tight.
Ford solo/studio is a completely different thing, and he just doesn't cut it anymore in that setting. With rare exceptions like Jing Chi, but even that tended to get TOO out there to the point of boredom.
This has been getting more and more obvious since 'tiger walk'. It's funny that Ford says 'Supernatural' was his favorite. That's the least favorite of mine, and I've got his entire catalogue. Sometimes an artist, just by virtue of 'trying something new', will put that work in high personal regard, even if it really isn't actually their best work.
If I introduced anyone to Ford today, I certainly would not give them any studio releases post 'handful of blues' as an example of the 'best of Ford'. This is my point. Warren Haynes has not yet reached the point where you can say, "Sorry, he/his band just isn't as good as he used to be ten/fifteen years ago." And this guy can play jazz licks with the best of them. He can get as technical as he wants. Listen to 'sunflower', and show me a recent Ford instrumental that beats it.
Ford has completely switched gears, in his writing, and this has long been obvious in his approach to guitar, which imo, the playing/songs are just not as inspired as it was with the blue line. Maybe TOO much guitar switching and tone fiddling is his problem. Guitarists can over do it. Ford had a tonal sweet spot, and he hit it on Blue line albums. That sweet spot is heard less and less these days. It's almost a Jekyll Hyde thing. He'll get together with someone like Larry Carlton, and do a great live album, and then you think why doesn't he just record live albums all the time. Lol!
Ford is too sophisticated? The Mule isn't? Mule doesn't sell millions of cds either. I'm sure they sell more than Ford, but they're still underground. Not many care about musicianship these days. Mule can play rings around almost any band out there. Sophistication doesn't = no sales. Bad songs = no sales. Most people don't give a flying squirrel for guitar solos these days and wouldn't know what makes a good or bad one. Even I, a huge fan of all that is 'guitar solo' cannot listen to a song strictly for a brief brilliant solo, if the song itself sucks. And 'Another man's ceiling' is sophisticated? Lateral climb is sophisticated? First time I heard 'ceiling' (never heard Simon's version), I swear I heard Ford singing 'One man's semen is on another man's floor." Lol!
The audience can dig sophistication, as long as you don't overdo it, and you write better songs, and keep it in context. Again, it also has to do with 'voice', the whole package, not just guitar playing. Haynes just has a more expressive voice that is better suited to this kind of music, and the audience knows it, and they respond to it. He has nailed it on 3 fronts. Got it to gel. Ford has not acheived this yet. Haynes also writes better songs and does it more consitently. The guy's output is unreal. I rarely care about lyrics in songs, since I'm mainly interested in guitar playing, but Haynes is one of the few that actually says something to me.
Mule plays 70's music. Lol! And what exactly is Ford playing? Something new? I think not. He isn't playing anything that hasn't been done before, and done better by others, at least on the last five albums. Sure, there are some great solos, but often the songs just are not up to the level of the playing, and to me, even the playing is just too watered down on the studio releases. Ford's strength, is GUITAR PLAYING. It's not songwriting, or vocals, as good as those are, it's an incredible triptech for anyone to excel equally at all three. I give him full respect for getting A in the guitar dept, and at least C in the vocals/songwriting dept. Let's face it. No one in 30 years, or even next year, is going to remember anything from 'Truth'. As much as I didn't care for a band like Supertramp, I still remember their songs 30 years later. Ford has yet to achieve this level of songwriting, but the main thing is he keeps working at it. But I often think the man's lyricism is strictly in his fingers, and that's where he should keep it. Of course, he's getting bored with that, and he has to try something new. He's not happy with just instrumentals or guesting solos on someone else's song. He's lucky that he can do practically anything he wants at this stage in his life.
Haynes on the other hand, gets A in guitar playing, A in vocals, and A in songwriting. He's good enough to run two major league bands in tandem. Ford can't even keep one band going for more than a short tour. Rarely do artists come who exceed or equal the blues talents of the greats like Rory Gallagher, who consistently put out great albums over a long period of time. That's singing/writing/and playing, and LIVE playing, in equal measure. Haynes is on his way to getting to that level. Ford is there in the guitar dept, but not the others. Maybe I'm wroing to even categorize him in 'blues' anymore, as he sounds less and less like 'blues' over the last decade. More middle of the road, easy listening, I don't know what to call it. It's just too safe and too clean for me. An where are the riffs? Haynes writes real riffs, that are just great to play. I can hardly remember any good riffs that Robben has written lately. I know he can play lead like a mofo, but where are the riffs? You know, like how you can remember a hundred Keef licks at any time of the day? This is another thing that is oddly lacking from his albums. When he remakes a Cream song like 'Badge', then I hear riffs, but he didn't write them. Maybe he just doesn't like 'riffs' anymore.
And yes, I do write my own songs. Guitar instrumentals. And they're good. I can say that without false modesty. I've been playing for 30 years so I should be good at what I do. In fact, someone on this board once said I sounded like Ford on acid, which I took as a compliment. Ha ha! I don't pretend to be anywhere near the league of these guys. I'm just a hobby player, but I know what I like, and I can't help but feel disappointment when every new Ford release fails to live up to expectations which are based on the BLUE LINE releases.
But if Ford is happy with where he's at with his new direction, and working on songwriting, good for him. I just think he hasn't nailed it yet. Why else would I, a dedicated Ford freak who has covered so many of his songs, rarely listen to much he's done under his own name in the last ten years? I'm predisposed to like what Ford does, and I don't like them that much.
How was I converted in the first place? A friend of mine told me about Ford, and we went to see him in a small club in 1989. I was amazed. I once yelled out at Robben, "You're too good, Robben!" and he said, "Gee, I hope not." It was scary for me to see the depth of the guy's skill. I got this amazement seeing him live. I don't get anywhere near this feeling when I listen to the last ten years of this studio work. It's just not his venue. He needs to be heard live, where he can cut loose and open up, and of course, when I saw him at his peak with the Blue line, how could it not go anywhere else but downhill after that? Everyone has their peak. Even Mystic mile, which was probably the weakest of the blue line albums, still had these masterpieces on it like 'mystic mile' that to this day, give me the shivers from the extent of the feeling in there.
But that doesn't mean we have to feel like we can't critique what he does. He ultimately puts out his music for public consumption, or else he wouldn't bother going in the studio and releasing it.
Sorry for the long post. But I just think that there is too much hero worship of the man. He wouldn't like that. The zen drive/guitar book wouldn't like it.
Last edited by spatzi on Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 401 Location: College Station, TX
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:32 am Post subject:
Agree with JZ for post of the year- this has really brought out some great and insightful comments.
Road - no offense taken, please continue to vent! You and I have been around this board long enough and I respect and appreciate your style and opinions. Like I said earlier, it is nice to see some passion here.
In regard to reviewers, and I can't believe I am sticking up for them, they serve an important purpose. Remember the old saying, bad press is better than no press? And overall, the Truth reviews have been generally positive (I googled a bunch just to see if I can identify a trend). Many do point out what some feel is weak songwriting, but almost all focus positive attention on the playing. And remember the other old saying - if you believe the good reviews you have to believe the bad ones, too. Reviews, after all, are just opinions.
Comparing players - this is always difficult, but we seem to have to do it to some extent. Just human nature, I guess. While I don't necessarily agree with the Haynes comparison, Spatzi writes one hell of an argument! Well done.
I do agree with the comments about Ford's live playing - the level of excitement and passion does seem to kick mediocre songs into a higher gear. Maybe he could start releasing live CDs like so many other bands these days. More feedback for the new fan friendly web site perhaps? Whatever did happen with all those suggestions...
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: re:truth
he spatsi,I feel the need to respond.If you don't hear the different level of musicianship between wh and rf i wonder what you have been listening with all this years.jing chi boring?If you can't appreciate the superior musicianship,I can see why you dig the bikers/beer/viagra music of GM[boring changes].Greg & robben.His solo in melissa is pure robben[Oke,there's a little mistake,but we are all human]robben with carlton,who said:after one day rehaersing we went on the road[how about genius]Robben took the blues and mixed it with jazz to his own unique style.Its more music for the heart and the brains than for the groin.I think the state of music today and the need[record company]took robben into this [new] direction.But theres always something special to befound in his music/guitarplaying[Robben in Vintage guitar :there are chords on this record,you will not find anywhere else[sophistication?].This has got nothing to do wih hero worshipping[i dont have a robben tattoo],but can you recognize a genius when you see/hear one?[glenn gould,wes montgomery,john coltrane,miles davis,robben ford.
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: Re: re:truth
loek wrote:
he spatsi,I feel the need to respond.If you don't hear the different level of musicianship between wh and rf i wonder what you have been listening with all this years.jing chi boring?If you can't appreciate the superior musicianship,I can see why you dig the bikers/beer/viagra music of GM[boring changes].Greg & robben.His solo in melissa is pure robben[Oke,there's a little mistake,but we are all human]robben with carlton,who said:after one day rehaersing we went on the road[how about genius]Robben took the blues and mixed it with jazz to his own unique style.Its more music for the heart and the brains than for the groin.I think the state of music today and the need[record company]took robben into this [new] direction.But theres always something special to befound in his music/guitarplaying[Robben in Vintage guitar :there are chords on this record,you will not find anywhere else[sophistication?].This has got nothing to do wih hero worshipping[i dont have a robben tattoo],but can you recognize a genius when you see/hear one?[glenn gould,wes montgomery,john coltrane,miles davis,robben ford.
Yes, I do recognize genius, in Haynes and Ford. It's just that Hayne's genius is more obvious because he has hit 3 levels of genius: singing/songwriting/playing, where Ford has only hit one. Yes, Jing chi is often boring. Some of those songs are just not fleshed out well enough. It doesn't matter how many 'complex chords' you put in a song. If the song is not written well, no one cares. The best song on Jing Chi was 'going nowhere' mainly because of the interplay between them worked really well, and the song had something to 'say'. Much of the rest of it was noodling with no point or excitement. Contrast and compare to a MUCH superior instrumental in 'Life song'. Again, done with the BLUE LINE.
You keep missing the point. I think it's obvious that we all like Ford's playing. But there is more to music than just guitar playing. And for anyone to label Gov't Mule and Warren Haynes as biker music. LMAO! What can I say. This is ignorance on a massive scale.
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This has been a great discussion. There a lot of interesting viewpoints here. As for myself, I'm still playing the CD and enjoying it. I think it will be very interesting to see how the songs change as they are played live, too.