Robben Ford Discussion

[jconstant]

On Robben's new DVD he goes through the tune Oasis. And Example 15 shows how he subs an Ebmaj7 for the Cm7.

It sounds cool and works because the two chords have Bb, Eb and G in common. But why say it as a chord sub rather than just calling it a Cmin9 with no root in the voicing? It makes it a little harder to think of it that way, but maybe that's just me.

Any thoughts on this?
_________________
"Somebody's got to make some music around here." - Robben Ford

[JackD]

Chord subs get used a lot. C minor is just the relative minor to E flat major--it's just the way us crazy guitar players think of stuff!

[frank0936]

Robben has talked about chord substitution before and said it was something he just didn't get. Then, one day he said he just got it. I'm still waiting for that day!
Frank

[Bluelobster]

[AlChuck]

Well, if you called it C9 that wouldn't be right, C9 has an E, not an Eb. You must have meant Cmin9.

As far as chord sub or extension goes, it's really two ways of looking at the same thing. It's an effective "substitute" because it's really the same basic chord with the root dropped and the 9th adding a little flavor. The Ebmaj7 chord substitutes for the Cm7 because it's really another form of Cm7, as you pointed out. But it's arguably easier to think of and use the substitution point of view - plugging in another basic chord form following certain rules (here, the fact that the relative major 7th chord of a minor 7th chord works in its place) rather than think of how to grab a Cm9 with the third in the bass and no root) -- especially for guitar players who tend to think in chord forms rather than sets of notes.

[Millibobs]

It would be cool to have a matrix or table of such chord substitutions to quickly pull down relevant alternative chords from. Anyone seen such a thing?

[jconstant]

[pedro]

I thoroughly recommend Eddie Arkin's Creative Chord Sub book - Its one of the best I've come across. I just got a copy at Xmas and it explains the whole thing really well

Cheers
Pete

[pedro]

and just to build on this ...

1) he covers the functions of each chord derived from each scale degree in the major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales.
2) He covers the usual subs based on common tones between these chords....

e.g
1) in a major chord scale the ii chord and the iv chord can sub for each other
2) the V and the vii chords can sub
3) the iii and vi can sub ( and sub for the I chord )

he then does a similar thing for the minor scales.
Great stuff, easy to apply, and pretty easy to understand

After that he goes into chord extensions and chromatic alterations quite a bit - a really good overall view of substitutions, and loads of ideas to spice up your progressions.

Also there is a really great section on Blues subs.

BTW, check out Barry Greene on his site or at Youtube for some great materials on blues subs and playing in general - I think a lot of you here would enjoy it. I know I did.

cheers
Pete

[nineacres]

I recently came across this site: http://www.oreshko.co.uk/lessons.htm It's the most concise, easy-to-understand explanation I personally have read - so far
_________________
"Creativeness often consists of merely turning up what is already there. Did you know that right and left shoes were only thought up a little more than a century ago?" - Bernice Fitz-Gibbon 1894-1982

[jconstant]

I'm playing around with this some more and I'm trying to understand why an F7 fits in here. Robben is saying if you play this voicing of Ebmaj7 over the Cm:

X6576X

and then just move your first and fourth fingers so that you're playing:

X6756X

then you've got yourself a dominant 7th (F7). Basically he's just playing a little groove using Ebmaj7 and F7 over the Cm.

But over a Cm shouldn't it be Fm7 chord in order to fit?
_________________
"Somebody's got to make some music around here." - Robben Ford

[Bluelobster]

JC try Thinking in Bb Major , therefore Eb = IV , V= F7,
Cm being Dorian not Aeolian.
_________________
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=147748

[maxima]

Bluelobster,
if you dont mind me asking...what year did you go to GIT??


maxima

[jconstant]

[Bluelobster]