Robben Ford Discussion

[Budda]

So, this Theory Corner has just been sitting here idle, for too long!



Here's something different, that you may all enjoy.

Over a C7 Vamp, try mixing up these 3 Major Pentatonics:

C E Ab

These will take you from "In" to "Out", to "More Outter".

Yet, I think if you work with them, you'll find some very musical Lines can be found within these.

WADDAYATHINK?

[Budda]

And another one:

Say you're playing over a Minor Chord:

EX: Am

Try Am, Bm and Em Pentatonics.

By shifting between these 3 Minor Pentatonic Scales, you get a lot of options. And you'll get some "Tangy" Notes, as well!

So, over any Minor Chord you can play Minor Pentatonic Scales built off of the I the II and the V.

Does anybody else use this Application? If so, got any good Lines you want to share?

[AlChuck]

To extend Budda's tip slightly, thanks to the Blues With Brains instructional materials by Chuck D'Aloia:

For a minor blues that goes

i-iv-i-i
iv-iv-iv-iv
i-i-i-i
#V9-#V9-V#9-V#9
i-i-#V9-V#9


for the i and the iv chords, play the root pentatonic
for the #v9 chord, use the root pentatonic except replace one note - the flat 5th for the 5th
for the V#9 chord, use the root pentatonic except replace one note - the flat 1 or 7th instead of the root.

[Budda]

Cool stuff!

And yeahm, Chuck has some great stuff lurking in BWB! Highly recommended.

[AlChuck]

Good stuff...

For those too lazy to Google:
http://chuckdaloiamusic.com/id2.html

and here's a review:
http://www.tgpwebzine.com/?page_id=1226

[Danny]

So Buddha, what's the theory thinking behind your tips? Playing major pentatonic stuff from the I, III, and #V over a 7, and I, II, and V over a minor chord?
_________________
"Music is the only thing that you can share with a million million people and you don't lose, you gain. It helps you to get energy and to live long, because when your soul is very happy then you don't want to die." - Ali Akbar Khan

[Budda]

Those are Reciprocal Pentatonics. I got the idea from Clifford-D over on TGP. It's based on the idea of Overtonal and Reciprocal effects of Pitches on a Tonality.
Clifford and I both are working pretty hard at grasping a lot of the Concepts and Theories of Steve Kimock. And this is something Clifford has worked up, after talking with SK.

The most basic way I can explain it, is with a Circle Of Fifths. Actually, here's Clifford's explanation:


"Start with the Circle of 5ths (part of it)

.....................C
.................F.......G
................Bb.......D
................Eb.......A
................Ab.......E

On the right side we have a C major pent - C D E G A
On the left we have an Ab major pent - Ab Bb C Eb F (the reciprocal)
Both created from 5ths, ascending and decending

- This is as far as I was taking it. Ab maj pent/Fmin pent
sounds cool over a C7 chord. "Out" and chromatic.


Take the Ab major pent and put it on the right side
and find the reciprocals for it.

........................Ab
...................Db.......Eb
...................Gb.......Bb
...................B.........F
...................E.........C

put E on the right and find its reciprocals.

........................E
...................A.........B
...................D.........F#
...................G.........C#
...................C.........G#

Facinating, the reciprocal of E major pent is C major - that's what we started with.
Full circle?

Let's take inventory, don't forget were jamming over a C7 jazz/rock/blues jam

C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A B B C - all 12 tones are there. Steve always said
"all 12 tones are always available". Well there they are.

Not only that, but they are all represented in three Major pents

C maj pent
Ab maj pent
E major pent

Steve always talks of the "polarity of the 3rds" that didn't make much sence, till now.

The E major pent is on the maj 3rd above C7
The Ab major pent is the inverse or reciprocal maj 3rd below C7

as above
so below
another Kimock saying (quoting Mathieu).

In a nutshell,

over C7 play

C maj pent
Ab maj pent
E maj pent"


Anyway, I hear Clifford doing it, as well as Kimock and some others. For me, it is still pretty new and fresh. Although, it can be really cool!

I think the "Structure" of both the Pentatonic Form, as well as the Structure of the M3 Movement between the Pentatonics, is a large part of why this holds together.

One thing to keep in mind, is that this works within the 12 Tone, Equal Temperment of Fixed Pitch Instruments like a Guitar's Frets and/or a Piano's Keys.
However, many of the Pitches we use are actually just standing in for, or could be called the "Closest Available Note" to the naturally occuring Overtonal Pitches that our modern Notes are "avereged out" from.
So, this is one of the reasons that all 12 Tones are always in play.

And this Reciprocal Pentatonic Concept just allows for another "Structure" to frame it all.

As I said, I'm a student of these ideas, and hope that my limited ability to describe it all has been clear enough.
And basically I thought it might open up some conversation over here, as there are a number of great players that are members of this Forum.

[Budda]

Here's a good link to a Circle Of Fifths Picture, if you want to give it a look:

http://jjensen.org/CircleOf5thsFun.html

And check out the Spiral Of 5ths. Outside Of Equal Temperment Link at the top of that picture. It has some interesting info there, too.

[Budda]

Pretty different way to approach things, as far as what I have always understood. But, it seems to be answering many of the questions I've had.

Like, "Why do we Bend that m3rd. up just a little?". And why does Eb work so well over a C7 in a Blues setting?
Things that traditional Theory seems to go to great lengths, and through a lot of hoops, to explain.

Anyway, that's where it stems from. I just keep asking these questions..........

[Budda]

Okay, well that was a dud, huh?



Here's something to add to the mix:

Harmonizing the Minor Pentatonic Scale with a type of Chord Scale:

[Danny]

Ahaha Budda your ideas are great, I just can never find time to sit down and try them out!
_________________
"Music is the only thing that you can share with a million million people and you don't lose, you gain. It helps you to get energy and to live long, because when your soul is very happy then you don't want to die." - Ali Akbar Khan

[Budda]

Glad you're digging the ideas.

Yeah, it is hard to find the time to work through some of this stuff. I've been reading through a book Steve Kimock recommended: "Harmonic Experience" by W.A. Mathieu. It is a big mouthful for me! LOL I figure it'll keep me busy for another year or two, just getting through the Exercises and doing the work.

But, I want to work from start to finish through the entire book. It seems to be talking about things that I haven't found discussed anywhere else. And I think it may be a key to me finding a new (to me, anyways) "Theory" of how these things all work. So, I've dedicated a 2 year block to see if I will find it all workable or not.

Anyway, it's a cool book with a lot of interesting ideas. And I recommend it to anyone looking for answers.
It's not for everyone, however. The language has been described as "flowery". And I can see that. However, I find it a very good read. (For a Textbook, that is!). As Mr. Mathieu seems to have taken great pains to make these ideas and abstract views "come down to earth", and be more easily understood.

Still though, it takes a lot of focus for me to actually do the work.

Here's one thing the book discusses, of which I have only a cursory grasp of.
The ideas of "5 Limit" and "7 Limit" Tonalities.
5 Limit being (to my understanding, so far) a system of working through Pitches found within the framework of 1:1 through 5:1. Or, from a Unison Note (The TONIC, or Literal Tonal Center), through the 5th. Partial or 5th. Overtone of the Overtone Series.
This is what the "Major Scale" and it's associated Harmonies are based on. What most of us are familiar with, as far as Theory.
7 Limit continues up through the 7th. Partial, or 7th. Overtone. (Again, I'm not fully versed in all of this, yet).
The 7 Limit Framework is where I think I'm going to get a LOT of my desired information and answers. Because, Blues (and Blues-Based or Blues-Related, like many Folk Musics) is considered by Mathieu, as a "7 Limit" Music. And Blues type stuff is where my questions have always been. Over in the corner, nagging at my "Diatonic Theory" and my understanding of how Music is commonly described in my Music Theory books.

Anyway, that's a lot of writing, for me!
I don't want to derail this Thread too far. But if you want to, I willbe glad to try and discuss what I do "get" so far.
The last thing I'll write on it now, is for those who still wonder why the "Blues" so readily accepts a m3rd. AND a M3rd. sitting side by side in a piece of music, you may want to look into both the book Harmonic Experience, and into the articles and lessons from the guitarist Steve Kimock.

Back to thos pesky Pentatonics..............

[Budda]

Okay, here's an idea using the Chord Scale idea from above. I see it working well for Am Dm and Em/E7.

[Budda]

Anybody got anything to share on Pentatonic uses?