Robben Ford Discussion

[JackD]

Guys:

Sorry if this topic has been covered before (please send the link if it has).

I just posted the same question on The Gear Page and would love to get Daved's opinion (particularly if he and Robben have done the comparison):

The new Celestion Heritage 12-65s have been out for a while. I have a pair and really like them a lot. I have a chance to get a pair of vintage ones (+/- 1980). I was wondering if anyone has really compared the Heritage re-issues to the original ones. Is it really worth it to me to try an old pair (if they sound better)? If there's not that much difference, I'd likely stick with the the reissues for reliability sake.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[frank0936]

Here you go:

http://www.online-discussion.com/RobbenFord/viewtopic.php?t=2739&highlight=heritage
Frank

[JackD]

[yebdox1]

Hey, Jack,

Are you using those in your Deluxe? Is there enough headroom for jazz applications? I've thought about one of those, but they are pretty spendy to sample. I've read that RF uses one in his Deluxe, though.

[johan]

I like the "new" Heritage G12-65 from Celestion but they are only a copy of one of the various versions of the old "65".
According to Celestion people the 65 went through many changes. I have no idea what the changes were and I doubt the Celestion people know.
If you buy old, first check the "Lead" vs. "Bass" cone. They sound quite different. Of the old Lead 65's I've tried some have been better sounding to my ears than others. If you buy the new Heritage you know what you will get.

[Daved]

Johan,

That's an important point when dealing with the older 12-65 vintages and was why Celestion worked with me for a couple of years when trying to recreate the new speakers.

They asked me to go thru all the old models I had laying around and answer questions for them, as they researched trying to find the exact speakers that Robben liked as the 12-65's of old had gone thru many small, but critical, mods.

30+ years ago, "12-65" meant a 12" speaker rated at 65 watts, but did not guarantee that the design and construction was always exactly the same. My understanding is that these speakers were initially designed as theater speakers, so the cruciality of dependably consistant sound, tone, and response required by guitar amp applications was not a deciding factor in their original design and construction.
Some were, and some were not, ported on the back of the magnets with various sized holes, with and with out metal screens made of various materials and gauges. The dust covers were of varied sizes, materials, and textures. Cone material changed and the ribbing went thru changes. The magnets themselves went thru slight changes of different kinds and the metal baskets had a variety of subtle alterations over time.

I was actually quite surprised to find all the variations when I started inspecting our stash of old speakers closely for the folks at Celestion. No wonder I had been having so much problem keeping our stock of old and newly acquired vintage 65's sounding consistantly good.

As I mentioned in the update at the link JackD provided, it got to where reconing was useless as I noticed (and I actually pointed this out to Robben at the time) that the re-cones were, upon return, always and obviously physically different.

In my dealings with Eminence's attempts to recreate Robben's sound, they came very, very close. In fact Robben's exact words upon A/B-ing the last attempt was "They are soooo close that the difference is nuance that I can't quite put into words. They are so close in fact, that no one else in the world would ever probably be able to hear that difference but me."

Robben's ears now tell him that the new Celestion line is correct and consistant and hits the musical nail squarely on the head for him... which is all he ever desired and asked for.

The point being, Jack, if reliability is your issue in choosing between the new and the old speakers, acquiring genuine vintage Celestion 12-65's does NOT, as pointed out by Johan, assure you of getting the sound and response that attracts Robben, because there are just too many potential subtle variations that the speakers went thru way back when.

The new line of G12-65's was especialy developed to please Robben's ears and to satisfy his response desires. Whether you like them or not, whether they work for you or not, is totally up to you and what you seek in a speaker.
However, you can now dependably count on the fact that, unlike buying a 35 year old vintage Celestion 12-65, the new ones are now reliably consistant and you'll know exactly what you'll get every time you get one.
_________________
B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)

[ltkojak]

I don't think about the old ones, as the new ones are excellent. If they can keep up with consistency, they're hard to beat.
_________________
Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
Milano, Italy

[JackD]

Daved:

Thanks for the detailed reply. I actually ended up buying a pair of Vintage 12-65s. I had my good friend and amp guru Guy Hedrick come over. He has been playing with these types of speakers for 30 years and is an expert's expert. I am lucky to have two identical Dumble style ported 2 x 12 cabinets (one with Heritage 12-65s and one with EVs). We pulled the EVM 12Ls out of one cabinet and replaced them with the vintage 12-65s. Bingo, I had a side by side comparison of the re-issues and the vintage. We spent a lot of time doing A-B comparisons.

I must have gotten lucky because the vintage pair I got sound great. In comparison to the re-issues, the vintage ones sounded just a tad brighter with a little more edge. They also sounded more broken in (duh--they are from 1982!).

Both the re-issues and the vintage sounded great and you could tell they were essentially the same speaker. I would be happy with either speaker. I am actually seriously thinking of putting one vintage and one reissue in each cabinet so I don't have to think which is slightly better/different than the other. Since I have two Dumble-style amps (a 6L6 and an EL34) I think I want both amps to have the best of both worlds!