Robben Ford Discussion

[jconstant]

I have the Robben Ford Blues and Beyond book that goes with the Blues and Beyond instructional DVD (this isn't the booklet that comes with the DVD but rather, is a more complete version of that booklet). Anyway, there's a section on the diminished scale, particularly, how Robben uses G diminished over a G7 chord. And the scale it shows is:

G Ab Bb B C# D E F G

So as you can see that first interval is a half step, not a whole step. I would therefore think of this as an Ab diminished scale just starting on G (or some might call it the G dominant diminished scale, which I believe is the other mode of the scale). Point is, I've learned that the traditional diminished scale starts with a whole step interval, not a half (the 1/2 step interval would be the other mode I mentioned).

So if I'm right and this book is wrong then really what's happening here is he's just applying the 'play the diminished scale 1/2 step above the root' idea (Ab diminished over G7).

Am I making sense here? Is this book wrong or is it me?
_________________
"Somebody's got to make some music around here." - Robben Ford

[frank0936]

That has always been a bit confusing to me as well. I just looked it up in "Theory for the Contemporary Guitarist" and it lists two different diminished scales - one starting with a half step and one starting with a whole step.
Frank

[AlChuck]

It has to do with the symmetric nature of the diminished scale...

The most common use of a diminished scale in jazz is over the altered dominant 7-flat 9 chord (e.g., G7b9). If you play the diminished scale with a half-step as the first interval starting on the root of this chord, there you are. So it's natural and reasonable if you're a jazz player to think of the half-whole diminished scale from the root rather than the whole-half diminished scale starting on the last tone of the scale...

[frank0936]

Thanks. That does help. I need to sit down and diagram it out now so I can really wrap my head around it.
Frank

[jconstant]

[frank0936]

I need a lot of help with this!

[Funkifized]

You're right about this. It's the Ab diminished scale. However, if you look at it from the G, you still have a G diminished chord in there, so it's sometimes considered G diminished scale. Confusing? Yes. Just think of it as the symmetrical diminished scale (whole/half) starting a half-step higher than the root.

G Ab Bb B C# D E F

This works over G7, but it doesn't work over Ab7. This scale works over Abdim, but not likely over Gdim, as the diminished scale tends to sound good with Maj7 in it. Overall, though, it depends what sounds good to you.

[lemonjefferson]

I tend to use the half step whole step scale on the 4th bar of a 12bar blues going to IV chord - it implys a I7b9 chord and a bit of tension and release (the release being the C9 - IV chord on the 5th bar of a G blues in this example).

As Robben says - you need to play around with the scale and come up with a few of your own licks using the scale.

[kirk95]

Key to using this is symmetry....

Play H/W on Dom7b913 that is the basic chord scale relationship. But the fun begins when you leverage your melodic ideas in this scale symmetrically - this lets you cycle in and out of the harmony - as long your phrase/cycle resolves back to the key/chord you end on.

Example:
Play a major triad - up a whole step and then up a half step and then keep going...

Play a major triad and cycle in minor 3rds up or down.
Play a major triad and cycle in tritones up or down.

Same cycles with dim triads... H/W, minor 3rds and tritones.

Same cycles with any line you come up with in H/W scale.

Same cycles with any melodic motif (any scale) same cycles.

This works great over any static modal vamp and over the blues too.

The key to using this is the RESOLUTION - it has to resolve musically back to the chord you end the line on.

And remember because of symmetry there are only 3 of these scales.

Check these patterns:

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[jconstant]

Thanks for the tips, Captain!
_________________
"Somebody's got to make some music around here." - Robben Ford

[tboulette]

[jconstant]

[tboulette]

I'd have to go back and watch the video again, but I thought Robben was demonstrating using G half-whole diminished over the 4th bar of a G blues, leading into the C7 chord, which would be a V-I (with the C as the I chord) in line what what we've been talking about.

[AlChuck]

[jconstant]

He was talking about using the diminished scale to get from the I to the IV chord so of course in the case of G, we're talking G to C.
_________________
"Somebody's got to make some music around here." - Robben Ford