Robben Ford Discussion

[Bluelobster]

Hi Daved , i've seen Claudia's thread with great interest. first of all
even if we french are reckless , you'll never find something like this on the French E bay, no way (but we are a little country !). Now here is my question : How strange some Bootlegs are off the soundboard with a great
quality????? Is there some felony in some of the venues ? Who is part of this ? the boss of the venue, the soundman, some roadie ???
Last year i find a live Jeff beck in Montreux on Ebay, it happened the seller was in Switzerland so i private mailed him, i think when he saw i was french he feared something, he never replied and changed adress.Then i realized it couldn't be an official DVD sold only in US, it was a F;;;;;g Boot.
Blob

[Daved]

Blob,
There are a few groups (such as Phish, Little Feat, and others... probably most famously known, the Grateful Dead) who allow (indeed, encourage) this practice, even to the point of providing feeds from their soundboard, hence the improved quality over cheap recording devices smuggled into the venues in purses, pockets, and so on. (Unsanctioned recording quality has greatly improved in recent years also because of the amazing improvements in minaturization and technology of stealth recording instruments.)

I've never really understood, or agreed with, the logic which goes something like... (a) if one group allows show taping, then it is the public right that ALL shows be taped (My thought: if a show is freely open to the public community, then you may have a valid argument, but if you paid a price of admittance, then you've just bought a specific "product" and are subject to the limitations of the price, provider, and packaging of that product.), (b) if everyone can bootleg than no one will buy those bootlegs (My thought: if everyone can bootleg, then why buy the official/store product?), (c) the "Tapers" (as they are officially called) ONLY trade their tapes (My thought: again, if you can tape and trade, then why buy + Maybe a few trade only, but the market for stolen shows has become so lucrative [both privately & publicly] that many give in to the temptation and sell... witness e-bay and such), (d) it's the right of the public, included in the price of the ticket, to tape and own these shows, (My thought: you buy a box of custard... it is NOT the right of the public that other related products such as milk, eggs, and sugar, automatically come with your purchase), (e) the consumer products are way out of line price wise (My thought: this may be true to an extent, but the costs of stolen product and lost sells inevitably gets passed on to the consumer), and (f) the practice of illegal taping and selling will not affect the official sells other than in a positive way by encouraging consumers to go buy the official releases (My thought: this has been shown to be wholly false over recent years by the problems & major hit in sells, due to bootlegging, being experienced thruout the industry. The money you pay for these stolen products goes nowhere except SOLELY into the pocket of the thiefs, stiffling the abilities of the artists and their providers to bring you products of quality and variety. Seriously folks, record labels are closing down and bands are going under, because the labels cannot afford to support their losses anymore. This totally affects you, as a consumer, and the variety and availability of music availble to you).

"But I am only ONE person, so it won't hurt anyone if I buy one or two of these stolen products..."
BULLGARBAGE!!! You may only be one person, but the millions of other "one-persons" using the same logic and supporting these thiefs are becoming a MAJOR problem. Like voting, your single response adds to the total outcome of the big picture.
And, come on now, what part of "illegal" means acceptable to you? Do you find it okay for thiefs to illegally enter YOUR house and illegally take YOUR possesions?

Although I've been speaking primarily of the practice of bootleg show taping, these problems applying also to the increasing illegal bootlegging of the "Official products" due the conveniences of modern technology (burners, downloading, electronic marketing & selling, acceptance and encouragement by the consumers, etc.) is a whole 'nother kettle of worms!
A phrase becoming VERY familiar and all too common these days is: "I have tons of music but I haven't bought anything in years. Why should I pay for it when I can go online and get it for free?"
Would you like to work at your job for free? That's EXACTLY what your asking of your favorite entertainers, gang!

Taking this all a step further, it is very quickly becoming apparent that the movie industry is on the verge of experiencing these same problems that the music industry has been dealing with for several years now. The people that support these practices are ultimately shooting everyone in the foot. Quality, variety, and availability are all being severly hampered... and it's EVERYBODIES (artists, providers, and consumers) loss!
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B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)

[Bluelobster]

Daved thank you for this quick reply. I knew about these jam bands and recently i've read on John Mayer site his taping policy. Myself i was lucky enough to meet Steve Hillage in 76 and asked him if i could tape the show in Nice, he said sure , he even lent me his recorder and introduced me to the engineer for a "off the board" taping. Back home the show was a mono mix on the left channel. I didn't mind at all , i was a fan not a bootlegger, and thinking back it was a normal thing to do.
Anyway i am still nosy , what kind of people are making bootlegs out of Robben's music. Yes, to do a package like this iron horse CD must imply the sound is very good...
Now you must know that hardcore fans trade, but they still buy the regular stuff (even know some traveling 8000 km for a gig).
Since the technologic revolution i enjoy more than ever buying a CD i love,
it makes me feel like i am paying my due to the artist . But a whole other
bucket of worm is there : Majors, Marketing, Mainstream art, elevator music, World wide brainwashing.

[kirk95]

[kirk95]

The reality is that with the exception of the top 1% of artists, artists make very little money selling CDs. Record companies, however, do. In fact, record companies break even on very low sales volumes.

I would be curious to know what percentage of Robben's net earrings come from his records sales? My guess is that he makes his money on publishing and touring.

Therefore if artists make very little money selling recordings, just what is lost giving them away for free?
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[iamthewalrus]

First, I completely agree with Daved that doing anything but paying for the recorded works of artists is out-and-out theft, no question. That said, there’s another way to look this from a musical artist’s point of view. The major record labels, through a well-documented series of huge mis-steps (OK, gross f*ckups fueled by plain old greed), have made themselves irrelevant and put themselves essentially out of business. The means of production and distribution are truly in the hands of artists – Pro Tools and the Internet. According to a well-placed industry source a musical artist’s revenue streams roughly break down like this: Touring, 60 – 65%, merchandising, 10 – 15%; publishing, 5 – 10%; film & TV, 2 – 5%; RECORD SALES, 2 – 4%; ancillary, 1 – 2%. So, looks like the Grateful Dead had it right all along. If record sales are such a small part of a musician’s revenue stream, what IS the big deal if people download/trade songs and the like. Sounds very much like the recorded work (the CD) might better be thought of as an invitation to the live show. If you think of it that way, wouldn’t you want it in as many hands as possible no matter how they get their hands on it? Daved?
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[Bluelobster]

Hi, have you ever been on wayne Krantz site, he is selling his live gigs like this, you can suscribe for kind of 10 bucks a month and access downloadings.

[marinblues]

Robben should really do a Live CD with his best tracks from the past 15 years.


marin

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M44

[route66blues]

In this day of corporate radio with only the big boys able to pay to be played ther has to be another avenue to build a fan base. The internet for all the bad it does some artists it has contributed to the success of others ie, Phish. Word of mouth is the only way for some artists music to spread,
or trading or downloading. The radio used to be where you heard music you wanted to buy. Now it is from friends aquaintences and strangers, on Forums chatrooms and live trading. I have never heard a boot sound better than a well produced official live release so just because I might have aquired a live show doesn't mean I'll never buy official products.

I understand Daved's point of view and if an artist feels the bad outweighs the good in live show tapers then by all means ban them
but you must in turn provide something official for us to buy. There is something about live show that I can't get enough of. I guess thats why I keep buying those concert tickets. Some artist have merchandise only available at live shows. Making attending their concert a neccesity to aquire offical releases and merchandise. Some make themselves available to autograph items bought at the show.

The game is changeing and we all must adapt. I don't think you should write off downloading, taping, and trading as a way to increase the popularity of established acts like Robben our young up and comers like Los Lonely Boys, and Joe Bonamassa, among others. Most fans collect anything they can by there favorites even if it costs 18 bucks at Barns and Noble.

I was reluctant to buy anything Derek Trucks band has done until I heard a live boot now its off to Best Buy see you. By the way it was a sound board recording and if you can sound good live off the board then you can sound good anywhere.

route66blues

[Bluelobster]

[Leftbender]

A great idea, guys. I believe Robben should seriously take this in concideration!!
As for my favourite gig:

The Blue Line concert in 1991 at the North Sea Jazz festval. It was the first time I saw Robben. Last year a piece of this concert was on Dutch radio. I taped it and listen to it very often. I would like to have the whole concert, though. It is absolute one of the best live music I have ever heard!
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"Don't play what's there, play what's not there" Miles Davis

[jconstant]

[juspasinby2003]

I gotta agree 100% with Kirk95 on all points he made, especially the "nothing lost by giving it away" argument.

Robben, the record companies are never going to give you a clear path to your just rewards. They will never promote you to the extent your artistry deserves. Hence, they will never allow you to reach your full commercial potential. Free yourself from their contractual shackles, and follow the music. Give your present and nascent fans what they seek - your evolving art. As David explained, the rewards are there already waiting, and the freedom you will gain is priceless and musically liberating.

Actually, Robben, you have already realized some of this potential in your clinics, which, I suspect, have been a godsend to you financially and a great and memorable experience for all who attend. That's just one tangible example of the principle of being amply rewarded for meeting the fans' needs and desires. The fans want to be in your presence. They want to hear your musical ideas and expression. They want to know what goes on in your head and your heart when you perform. They want to understand how it all comes together to the perfect musical expression that you consistently give so naturally.

That is the product, in cold economic terms, that you offer in your clinics. Your students know that music theory instruction and training can be obtained at most universities and colleges. Your students come to you not for that knowledge, but for a better glimpse and understanding of your essense. Your rewards have come from meeting those students' needs.

There are many other ways of aligning yourself with the needs of your fans. The rewards to be had from meeting those needs, economically and spiritually, are much greater than you might previously have thought.

[telefunk1]

Another bit of info on the "off the board" issue - ran across this today from the Houston paper.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/headline/tech/2371956

[kirk95]