Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:32 am Post subject:
I think that Walrus has a point here (like Ovlio? ). I heard Keep On Running on the muzak at a Quizno's sandwich shop. Daved told me that it is getting more airplay than any other Robben release to date. This may be the break though hit that gains Robben a wider audience. Recently, you could just about count on every table at Yoshi's having at least one guitar player. These folks love to hear Robben's cool voicings of horn parts. But for John Q. Public who is used to Britany's or Janet's touring ensembles, they are expecting to hear roughly what they heard on the radio.
I realize that Robben enjoys the interplay of other musicians on the same level and trading solo ideas. But maybe it's time for one of those session "utility" cats who plays multiple things on the side filling in the missing parts from the record. Maybe it's time for the dreaded synthisizers . I saw a James Taylor thing on TV where a guy was playing a trumpet with his right hand (and mouth, or course) and a keyboard with his left, doing all the horn parts and making it sound real. I remember a Robben show at the Catalyst a few years back where Dave Mathews was showing a bunch of us a chart for the Rodger Kellaway (sp?) string quartet parts on "If". I didn't realize he was sight reading it, but he pulled it off about as well as a synth could given that the original has all the different instruments swelling in and out. It kept the character of the song intact and anyone who had heard Supernatural could recognize the song. Even it they weren't a musician.
The short of this long winded discertation, is that I think I am agreeing with Iamthe walrus in that, as Robben expands his audience beyond the musically sophisicated, he may benefit from putting on more of a "like the record" show. Of course we still want him to expand and "go off" like he does now, that's what make his live performances so special. Just satisfy the less musically aware consumer so that the market expands and we get more of the great stuff. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
I think that Walrus has a point here (like Ovlio? ). I heard Keep On Running on the muzak at a Quizno's sandwich shop. Daved told me that it is getting more airplay than any other Robben release to date. This may be the break though hit that gains Robben a wider audience. Recently, you could just about count on every table at Yoshi's having at least one guitar player. These folks love to hear Robben's cool voicings of horn parts. But for John Q. Public who is used to Britany's or Janet's touring ensembles, they are expecting to hear roughly what they heard on the radio.
I realize that Robben enjoys the interplay of other musicians on the same level and trading solo ideas. But maybe it's time for one of those session "utility" cats who plays multiple things on the side filling in the missing parts from the record. Maybe it's time for the dreaded synthisizers . I saw a James Taylor thing on TV where a guy was playing a trumpet with his right hand (and mouth, or course) and a keyboard with his left, doing all the horn parts and making it sound real. I remember a Robben show at the Catalyst a few years back where Dave Mathews was showing a bunch of us a chart for the Rodger Kellaway (sp?) string quartet parts on "If". I didn't realize he was sight reading it, but he pulled it off about as well as a synth could given that the original has all the different instruments swelling in and out. It kept the character of the song intact and anyone who had heard Supernatural could recognize the song. Even it they weren't a musician.
The short of this long winded discertation, is that I think I am agreeing with Iamthe walrus in that, as Robben expands his audience beyond the musically sophisicated, he may benefit from putting on more of a "like the record" show. Of course we still want him to expand and "go off" like he does now, that's what make his live performances so special. Just satisfy the less musically aware consumer so that the market expands and we get more of the great stuff.
Kirk, will you collect Aeolian's essays and publish them in a short story book? I would like to write a short foreword.
Customer No1 Ed
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 762 Location: Southern California
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject:
Aeolian wrote:
Of course we still want him to expand and "go off" like he does now, that's what make his live performances so special. Just satisfy the less musically aware consumer so that the market expands and we get more of the great stuff.
I could be off here but I'm thinking that Robben wouldn't be real hip to dumbing down his music to get a bigger audience or fan base. I mean, I'm sure he loves to sell lots of records and have lots of people at his shows. But I just don't see him writing his music with appealing to the "less musically aware consumer" being a driving force of his creativity. You're absolutely right that playing what was recorded on a CD will be what many people want but I can't see that being his motivation.
Like you, I love to go to the live shows to NOT hear him play what was recorded.
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:33 am Post subject:
jconstant wrote:
Like you, I love to go to the live shows to NOT hear him play what was recorded.
Jim
When I go to Robben shows, it's usually so I can hear the kind of thing that Robben does live, that never makes it onto the studio releases.
Uh oh folks, sorry but I feel another "essay" coming on
But I have noticed over the last couple of years that he has been leaning away from being "the guitar players guitar player". Otherwise he would be doing nothing but Jing Chi and Tiger Walk albums. Don't you think he might be getting tired of eveyone coming up to him asking about the settings on his amp or what kind of strings he uses. Maybe he'd like someone to come up and say how some song touched them, or reminded them of some other time.
A couple of weeks ago I dug out Blue Moon, an album I had pretty quickly dismissed as a basic blues throwaway since it didn't have any of "that" kind of guitar playing on it. I had just been somewhat unceremoniously dumped and I remembered a song about "You're gonna be sorry" (I had forgotten about 'Hard to Please' ). In this frame of mind, I found the whole album becoming very involving. And realized that the songs were clever and melodicaly interesting. Maybe no screaming altered guitar solos, but songs with interesting changes, with lyrics that spoke to me, and grooves that made the right statement for each song. So while standing there at Moe's Alley (alone on the same dance floor we had shared for the last year and a half), and Robben started playing "The way that you treated me", I felt connected to the music and the song. I don't know if Robben ever felt the way I felt at that moment, but we all read our own personal interpretations into songs that speak to us. What was interesting to me was that I wasn't waiting for the lyrics to be over so I could hear some amazing guitar solo. The whole thing fit together. I think I connected to the music in a way that non-guitar players, or non-musicians would. I don't think it was less musically aware (I mean I realized I wasn't hearing a bunch of melodic minor or tritone substitutions) but was more tuned in to different facets of the music. Those that speak to more folks than the musically sophisticated. There are only so many part time musicians with the wherewithall to buy all of Robben's albums and attend all his shows. I think he is deliberately trying to reach a broader audience. Not by dumbing down his music as much as adding these facets to it. And making the studio releases more accessible to people looking for more than just a guitar players guitar player. I don't think he's ever going to give up enjoying himself live, but his being more accessible to that broader audience is where I was basically agreeing with iamthewalrus's potentially sacrilegious assertion that Robben might be well served by a back up band that is better able to reproduce the basic arrangements from the records.
Whew! That's it for now. This does make for an interesting debate, should/has Robben become more "accessible" to get his music across? _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:10 am Post subject: the contuing evolving thread
Boy, me and my big mouth. I don't think anyone has suggested that Robben slavishly reproduce what's on his CDs or change anything he would do solely to appeal to a "mass audience." I just can't ever see that happening, ever. The issue I brought up was, with wider airplay and exposure, the nature of the fan base is bound to change to some degree and us guitar geeks may someday have to take a back seat to people who don't necessarily connect with Robben at that level but on all kinds of other levels. I think we all know he is the whole package, the real thing. I took my (new-ish) son-in-law and the rest of our crew to see Robben at the Coach House in S. Orange Co. last year - he had never heard Robben before. When I asked him how he liked the show he said, "what a voice, WHAT a great voice!" And he's a guy who generally freaks out about great guitar playing! As Aeolian said, at Yoshi's there was probably a guitar player at every table - hey, at ours, there were three and one great one (not me). Robben has so much going on I belive he can reach that "wider audience." Hey, how about this? At the next Robben show you go to bring someone who has never seen Robben live! Parents, bring your kids!
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:12 am Post subject: more essay
I think we are going to find something valuable out of this thread.
I would love mastering english as well as all the ideas running in my head , but i am going to do short.
Bear in mind that behind all the guitar"s addicts, players, heads, behind all the hard core fans of jing chi or tiger, a lot of people evolves, gravitates, and ask : who's that ? can you put the other record , the one with the songs ? where can i buy this stuff ? Oh he is cute ! Mainly women .
This summer we listened Handfull of Blues FULL BLAST . My friend tried to
break his B & O speakers in order to check the serious of the factory.
HO these 200 Watt of madness ....His brother his law came in and said :Wow at least there is still some bluesmen who have real statement to do. And he start to copy the CD's (sorry daved) on K7 to have it in his car, asked me to write down about my favorites in order to buy them back in paris.
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 762 Location: Southern California
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:50 am Post subject: Re: the contuing evolving thread
iamthewalrus wrote:
Hey, how about this? At the next Robben show you go to bring someone who has never seen Robben live! Parents, bring your kids!
Cheers
That's always fun. I took a friend who had never heard of Robben and continually gave me shit about thinking so highly of a musician that, in his mind, nobody knew about. Robben walked out on stage and kicked off the show with The Brother (this was many years ago, obviously). After listening for 30 seconds my friend turned to me with a look of total disbelief on his face and said, "Robben is AMAZING". I simply replied, "Yeah, I know that."
As far as how Robben plays in concert, I always count on him to play from his heart. Whatever moves him will move us. He has extraordinary range and capabilities when it comes to playing, and can readily call up whatever emotion he wants to get across. At least, that's how it appears to me.
I attend as many shows as possible when Robben is in the Bay area. And I always bring friends along, and each year have more and more converts. Some are professional musicians, but most are not. So far, only 2 haven't "gotten it", but that was the Jing Chi tour last year which was a little more inaccessible for "new-bies". Most feel about his playing as I do ... it seems to shake out any prevailing dust and bring on the golden sunshine.
Oh yes, and his singing! Getting stronger each year; it was killer on "You Can't Make Peace".
Joined: 19 Sep 2003 Posts: 646 Location: City of Trees, USA
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:28 pm Post subject:
I've been resisting jumping in to the discussion about the sound of the studio recordings (particularly "Keep on Running") and the live performances, but when I first read the issue on this thread I immediately thought about an interview I heard years ago with one of Robben's former band leaders ... Miles Davis. Miles was asked about his recordings versus his live performances. His fairly spacey (even for Miles) reply was that his records were only excerpted "programs" for his "real" music, i.e., his live gigs. The difference between the records (and they were actually records back then) and the "real" music, according to Miles, was like the difference between having a pamphlet in your hand with the names and jersey numbers of the players on the football field ... and actually being at the football game watching the players. Robben's live performances are very different in many cases than his studio recordings, and that's wonderful.
Not that I'd necessarily object to a "big band" show, including guest vocalists, etc. In many cases big-personnel pop shows are too slick and packaged, and are promoted for no other reason than to boost CD sales. They're not always that way, however. This past fall I took the family to one of James Taylor's October Road Tour shows at the Greek Theatre in L.A. Lots of well-rehearsed musicians and complicated charts (the line-up included Mike Landau -- one of Robben's own favorites -- on a million different guitars), but Taylor's manner, and the obvious affection all of the musicians had for each other, made it a very intimate musical affair.
As for boosting Robben's popularity: That's up to him. (With maybe some well-considered input from Anne and from Concord Records.) If his preference is the more personal, smaller shows, that he's doing, more power to him.
I've heard Robben in some pretty dinky venues, with small or non-existent cover charges. I'll stick with that over paying $60 or more for nosebleed seats at some place like Staples or the Hollywood Bowl. You're all right, that giving "newcomers" even a small taste of Robben's music usually makes them instant die-hard fans. That's enough. I don't need the outside validation of 10,000-fan crowds, Grammies, and the cover of Time Magazine, to convince me that I have excellent musical taste. _________________ - BlueRunner
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). I heard Keep On Running on the muzak at a Quizno's sandwich shop. Daved told me that it is getting more airplay than any other Robben release to date. This may be the break though hit that gains Robben a wider audience. Recently, you could just about count on every table at Yoshi's having at least one guitar player. These folks love to hear Robben's cool voicings of horn parts. But for John Q. Public who is used to Britany's or Janet's touring ensembles, they are expecting to hear roughly what they heard on the radio.
. I saw a James Taylor thing on TV where a guy was playing a trumpet with his right hand (and mouth, or course) and a keyboard with his left, doing all the horn parts and making it sound real. I remember a Robben show at the Catalyst a few years back where Dave Mathews was showing a bunch of us a chart for the Rodger Kellaway (sp?) string quartet parts on "If". I didn't realize he was sight reading it, but he pulled it off about as well as a synth could given that the original has all the different instruments swelling in and out. It kept the character of the song intact and anyone who had heard Supernatural could recognize the song. Even it they weren't a musician.
I've been resisting jumping in to the discussion about the sound of the studio recordings (particularly "Keep on Running") and the live performances, but when I first read the issue on this thread I immediately thought about an interview I heard years ago with one of Robben's former band leaders ... Miles Davis. Miles was asked about his recordings versus his live performances. His fairly spacey (even for Miles) reply was that his records were only excerpted "programs" for his "real" music, i.e., his live gigs. The difference between the records (and they were actually records back then) and the "real" music, according to Miles, was like the difference between having a pamphlet in your hand with the names and jersey numbers of the players on the football field ... and actually being at the football game watching the players. Robben's live performances are very different in many cases than his studio recordings, and that's wonderful.