Robben Ford Discussion

[tonemaster2_11]

I went to see Larry Carlton back in 1991. He played a 45 minute set through a borrowed Roland JC-120 with that Valley Arts guitar ( with the P-90’s) he used to play. Guess what he sounded like… LARRY CARLTON. Yeah, JUST LIKE HIM! Go figure. That set changed my life. You see I was actually P***** off that there was no Dumble to be heard. I felt like I should get a partial refund or something. What I got for the price of admission however was a $5000 ( I think that’s what Dumbles cost back then) lesson in “guitarmanship”.
All this talk about amps and settings is silly. If you want to sound like Robben Ford then LEARN TO PLAY LIKE ROBBEN FORD. No matter what you plug into, things like phrasing, note choices, muting and picking techniques and melodic content will get you a lot further toward your goal than ANY amplifier ever will. Who knows, you might even develop a style and sound you like BETTER than Robben’s. ( I know….Sacrilegious!!! )
Don’t get me wrong. Good amps make a difference for sure but 99% of it is in your hands and YOUR EARS! Took me a lot of years and A LOT of $$$ to figure that out even after my lesson from Mr. Carlton. I just didn’t want to believe it.
The greatest compliment I’ve ever gotten at a gig is when someone says “I hear a lot of Robben Ford influence in your playing”. That sure sounds better to me than “Hey man your amps sounds just like a Dumble”.
Maybe someone could star a thread wherein we swap licks and techniques instead of settings and rig descriptions.

THANKS.

[Bluelobster]

Hello Tonemaster , welcome , cheers, thank you , Wonderful , Blast, Gasp,
Since a long time i try to improve my english in order to be able to express some of my feelings.
It seems that you did it for me.
Great. Carry on. Blob.

[marinblues]

[kirk95]

[scottl]

[kirk95]

[tonemaster2_11]

WOW what great responses! Thanks to all for not beating me up TOO much! I'll be catching up with Robben and Daved in Cleveland Wednesay night if anyone would like to slap me upside the head! I'll be the guy with the drool in his beard.
I apologize to Scott and anyone else who felt as though I was suggesting I was superior or above all of this. Certainly that was not my intention. I enjoy swapping gear reviews as much as the next guy and I too have an amp I like very much. (No it's not a Tonemaster anymore. Old screen name.) For me the detail and nuance that a good amp provides is essential to "getting my point across" yet my inherent tone has been there through several amp changes.
The tone on that sound clip is really nice. I had listened to it before. Sounds like you and no one else. That's a good thing. I saw Sonny Landreth last summer and allthough you could hear the signature midrange quality of the Dumble he certainly sounds like no one else yet I'll bet he sounds best through that amp rather than another. Your point is well taken. He's pretty amazing by the way! Watching him play is like watching someone charm a snake.

someone else posted...

If the amp is only 1% of it then why does/do:

1> Robben and Larry Play Dumbles? If there is little difference why bother? They can play anything ...right?
2> Mike Stern not have great tone but have great hands, ears, and plays incredible lines?
3> Guitar players for the last 35 years lust vintage Marshalls and Pre CBS Fenders?

1.) Do you really need to ask? Is there such a thing as a LITTLE difference when you get to that level? "The devil is in the details" as they say. I think Scott would agree. Besides if you can afford the best tools you buy the best tools. I don't think either of those guys get seriously bummed out if their Dumble's not available and they have to play through something else. It's just a preference for the best. It's no different than professional mechanics, golfers, photographers etc. using the best tool for the job. Ever use a Chinese crescent wrench?

2.) In my opinion "great hands" include great tone. They're not mutually exclusive. Certainly Mike Stern is an accomplished player but I could never stand to listen to him for very long. Same case with Scofield. The chorus pedal drives me crazy.

3.)This is oversimplifying but... BUILD QUALITY and FEATURES. The same reason the amps that we're discussing here all sound as good as they do. Also both of the amp styles you mentioned appeal to players who gravitate towards simplicity and a lack of doodads. Ever watch one of those guys try to navigate a JCM 2000? Some of those guys get confused if there's more than one knob labeled "volume". And by the way..."35years"?!?!? That was 1969. All we had were "vintage amps". When I sold my '65 Strat it was nothing more than a 6 year old Fender guitar. We didn't have "vintage" back then, just "old".

Anyway, thanks for letting participate in such an interesting discussion. I'll check out that "theory" thread too.

[telefunk1]

Tone - I tend to agree with you for the most part. There is a lot of concern around these parts with getting the RF tone, whatever that means. To some it means lusting after a Dumble in hopes that it will be the pot of gold; to other folk it means learning the licks note for note. I have posted in the past about how an obsession with someone else's tone may not the healthiest attitude, but hey we are all different and approach music making differently. Live and let live. Frankly, I really enjoy Stern's and Sco's tones - this is what defines who they are, just as RF through a Dumble defines him (or a Super 400 through a blackface Fender Super, which is what I still hear when I listen to RF). This does not mean that I want to emulate any of them, but I would rather appreciate them for what they are - an expression of the inner muse/soul/whatever and spend time trying to develop my own voice and sound.

And I think Stern has great tone - so there!

I will have a chance to catch Landreth in April - am really looking forward to this. Any of the Texas people out there - he will be in Conroe on April 17.

[Crash]

Keep in mind, the entire reason that I started this thread was for a buddy of mine that is heavily influenced by Robben Ford and his playing. We have done shootouts with Brunos, Two Rocks and I am sure others he has tried that I am unaware of. I am unsure exactly what he is looking for, as is he, I am convinced, thus this thread was born. He tends to gravitate to the Dumble sound and has played some amps that are real close to being Dumble-like but he still hasn't written the check for one. He constantly gets the "you sound like Robben Ford" lines and he whinces everytime he hears that. Right now he is playing through a pair of old Fender Black Face amps that sound pretty damn good in my book but he is looking for something a little different, he is very discerning about his tone. I see the irony in all this, he hates being compared to Robben yet is looking for something along those lines in terms of tone. Make no mistake, my friend has chops, skill, technique, whatever you want to call it, for days. I started this so I could get the most wealth of knowledge from one or two sources to help him research what is available, he has no internet access at this time. So far this has been incredible in terms of learning what is out there and what people are playing. Keep up the good discussions everyone, this has been a real eye opener so far.

Crash

[kirk95]

[telefunk1]

...they can play anything, right? Well some people do play anything and sound great. Case in point, I saw Duke Robillard 10 years ago or so and he had a Peavey PA head balanced on top of an old fender amp of some kind (don't really recall what it was). I asked him during a break what the hell the Peavey was for and he told me he was using it for an amp - he liked the clean sounds and the reverb it had, so what the hell. And it sounded great and "like Duke." Wonder if anyone in the audience ran out and bought a Peavey PA head....

[kirk95]

Just because he sounded good on a Peavy doesn't mean he wouldn't have sounded a lot better through Robben's Dumble or a Pre-CBS Fender or a Two Rock or a Fuchs?
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[tonemaster2_11]

Yeah the chorus pedal thing just blows my mind. I mean day in and day out on every song for twenty years???
It should also be mentioned that all these guys we admire so much(RF,SH,SL,LC,EJ) have the luxury of playing really LOUD. Daved mentioned Robben being "tolerably uncomfortable" at lower volume settings. There's no substitute for moving large quantities of air. Makes getting good tone alot easier.
I recently saw a photo of Eric Johnson wearing what appeared to be headphones as he was standing about 10 feet in front of his rig. THere were so many amps in the room I thought to myself "I wonder if those are headphones or those things they wear at the RIFLE RANGE?" With a Strat no less! Just the HUM must have been extraordinary.

[scottl]

Sorry for being a bit harsh in my response Tonemaster! I think we are exactly on the same page!! I think the gear is more than 1% though. Most is the player but a measureable amount is the inspiration from having "your" tone. (or Robben's tone for many! haha)

I can be perfectly happy playing a Twin with a pedal. However, it doesn't inspire me like when I get a harmonically complex feeding back Fuchs note blooming out! I use the amps response as a compliment to my playing. Makes a bit of sense I think....

Thanks for taking my comment well and also for listening to my example and your nice words!!!

In the end we need to balance our playing and our GEAR SLUTDOM! Seems too many people go for the gear first in hopes of buying what they need to practice to achieve!

Regards,

Scott
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[Aeolian]

For what it's worth, here's my take on the gear vs. hands debate. In my playing "career", I've come at it the opposite way from Scott L. Having no access to "proper" musical education and having really horrid gear (the stuff in my avatar picture wasn't even mine, I had a St. George and 15W Olson transistor amp at the time, it wasn't until my senior year that I got past a Sears guitar and amp) I had to put most of my effort into getting a decent sound. I'm only now trying to learn about the notes I should be playing. Having fought with rotten gear and learned to force decent tone out of it, I find that good equipment just makes it easier and provides a broader palette. At this point, the gear search is to find stuff that naturally sits in the middle of what I hear in my head so that I can use my hands to vary it about that point. Rather than have to work all the time to get the basic sound that I want. And to get the broadest possible range of response to both dynamics and tone production in order to get the broadest range of emotional content. This is the reason that someone with decent tone production sounds decent on just about anything. They've learned to work the instrument, it just takes more effort. Someone who hasn't developed tone production as much will be more affected by the intrinsic sound of the gear.
Of course, what I hear in my head changes as I am influenced by different players, the sounds of different equipment and the band situation. One sound works in a trio while a large horn band with keys needs an entirely different sound. The character of a song changes what sound is appropriate too. To go back to our hero, even beyond changing guitars, when I listen to Keep on Running, I heard dramatically different amp settings or room/amp/mike setups.
I just got my Banzai pedal and tried it out last night in a four piece (with second guitar) in a small room. What it does is open up some new directions compared to the OD circuit in my Fuch's. Kind of like going from a Fender to a Gibson. Neither is right, but they inspire different playing.
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