Robben Ford Discussion

kirk95 · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:46 pm Post subject:

This is an endless debate that never seems to get resolved.

All I know Daved is Phish sold over a million dollars worth live shows in a couple of weeks - online! I believe Robben is missing a revenue opportunity. Why don't you guys at least explore the potential?

This board would be a good place to do market research. You have 400 dedicated Robben fans/ customers right here. Ask them what they would buy and would be willing to pay.

At the end of the day there are only two things you can do: 1> nothing and hope for the best. 2> try to discover new ways to monetize Robben's work.

I have said it a bunch of times...I will buy more stuff from Robben (live shows, DVDs, videos) and I would rather buy it directly from Robben rather than from a bunch of lawyers who add very very little value to process. I want to pay Robben more money, show me how?

My 2 cents! Very Happy

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Daved · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:52 pm Post subject:

LOL! It IS an endless debate, isn't it, Dave?

It's one of those things where if your on one side of the fence, it all looks so logical and simply executed. And if you are on the other side of the fence, it's all you can do to barely stay afloat.

Phish has lots of manpower and capital to work with. Phish can easily absorb costs. Phish has ALREADY established their place high on the chain. It's easy for Phish, with an already established fanbase of millions, to work the system.

As for MOST groups though, especially struggling artists way down at the bottom of the list, all these wonderful and obvious ideas don't easily work in most instances. That's why so many groups are dying, and so much of the business is going under.

If it was as simple as everyone NOT making a living off of the entertainment business thinks, then maybe some of those people should be working out the bugs in this brave new world and becoming the next Bill Gates.

So far, there's not too many of these Bill Gates types... just LOTS of artists and labels and vendors losing their shirts.

<< Ask them what they would buy and would be willing to pay. >>

Great idea... only problem is, whatever a handful will be willing to buy and pay for will almost immediately become available for free on the internet and the dedication of the few will NOT diminish the losses going out to the rapidly increasing legions of freeloader/thieves.

Someone first has to work out a full proof way of retaining control over the product and the whole digital/internet thing, at this point anyway, makes that virtually impossible.

Someone tell us how to keep possession of our products and we would consider offering all these live and bonus and extra things that all the fans want Robben to give them for free right now.... and I DO mean for free, cause the second you release anything, it becomes available to anyone who wants to steal it. "Why should I buy it when I can get it for free?"

Robben's newest CD was bootlegging on e-bay, supported by all the bidders, 2-3 weeks before release. My son's band, Edema, found their bootlegged CD on e-bay 2 months before release. Now his label, Arista, is out of business, largely because of the internet and the bootleggers.

Sure, YOU would never take it for free, and I would never take it for free... but, as I've said, for every you and me, there are a thousand others who won't support their artists if they can get the product for free... and that number grows greatly every day.

Maybe Dal, or Robben, or me, might be able to be the one who works it out.... but that is not the problems in life that I ever, and still don't, desire to spend my time working on. I do backline and stage production, not marketing and 'rights' protection.

And, so far, NO ONE has worked out the bugs. They just keep getting bigger and the public just keeps accepting them. Eventually, people like Robben and Dal and I will no longer be able to make a living at this business and will have to go work at Radio Shack, and the fans will lose their heroes.

Till then, we do what we can... which gets less and less every day.
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Aeolian · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:55 pm Post subject:

Daved · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:22 pm Post subject:

iamthewalrus · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:06 pm Post subject: to further the debate . . .

I have to weigh in on this. I just finished a UCLA extension class called "Artist Develop and Management in the Music Industry: The Business of Building Careers." The class was really great and we had panel discussions with people like Rob Light of CAA, Andy Slater of Capitol Records, Jeff Kwatinetz of The Firm, Tom Sturges of Universal Publishing and Lenny Beer of HITS magazine.

Some one correct me if these numbers are wrong but consensus was, as far as a percentage of total income for an artist, 60-75% is from touring, 10-15% from merchandise and 2-4% from CD sales. Looking at it from that point of view, the CD turns out to be a nice shiny, silvery invitation to your show.

Our final project involved creating a Marketing Plan for a real band. I was responsible for the touring section and here's one idea (not so original) I came up with: set-up a B&K or similar quality binaural dummy head at the sound board and record live shows. Then, offer them for a fee as a download from the artist web site. Our concept was a tiny bit more complicated but not in any functionally significant way. Sure, a few will be shared but I completely believe that most Robben fans will PAY rather than download free. My God, look at Norah Jones - it's the demographic folks! Robben's fans aren't downloader- freeloaders. There's also an outfit called "CD Live" that will bring in their sound truck/factory to a venue, record the show live and have CD's available immediately afterward. When the Doors did their New Year show at the Kodak Center in LA there was a very brisk business in CD Live's discs of their performance at $20 a pop.

Honestly, there isn't a live performance of Robben's I've attended, and it's been dozens, I wouldn't have purchased had it been available. Robben's CDs are great but the live shows are IT.

There's no doubt things are changing. And I am a firm believer that, in the end, the artist will be the beneficiary of these changes.

Cheers,
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kirk95 · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject:

Daved · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:19 pm Post subject:

juspasinby2003 · Senior Member Joined: 18 Dec 2003 Posts: 255

juspasinby2003 · Senior Member Joined: 18 Dec 2003 Posts: 255

srammell · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:32 am Post subject:

Cant really add anything different -

I agree with all of the comments, and I for one would also buy anything officially available in this context - like nearly everyone else here, I have a lot [20 CDs plus DVDs], of Robbens official releases, more than a lot of other artists I enjoy, and also see him as much as I can when he tours the UK. I have also turned many people on to his music through taking them to shows and also introducing them to his music.

I'll keep spreading the word, and keep hoping for more official live releases in the future

Simon

telefunk1 · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:54 am Post subject:

This is like talking to my kids and trying to get them to do something they do not want to do. At some point you have to say "because I said so." Robben has a position on live taping and it should be respected. Sure there are lots of debatable points, and times and technologies change and I am sure when the time is right maybe he will implement some of these good ideas. Until then, "because I said so" is good enough for me.

Daved · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:03 am Post subject:

iamthewalrus · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:39 am Post subject: further, deepeer . . .

I totally agree that Robben's current position RE live taping must be respected.

But, this is one of those pivotal times when artists need to move ahead or be left behind. It's not just Phish, how about SCI? These guys gross millions, seem to be a model of vertical integration (their own travel agency, ticket agency, label) and the whole thing (this is the info I got) is run by four people in an office in Boulder?

http://www.stringcheeseincident.com/

Cheers
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Knock knock.
Who's there?
Control freak. Now you say "control freak who."

dodgeboy · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:35 am Post subject:

Daved, we finally drug this thread out long enough to get a response from ya...lol
Well I will start by thanking you for your time and opinions as I know both are valuable. I.M.H.O. I feel the recording industry is a lot to blame for the sad state of their industry today. I work for a struggling major airline and I find there are a lot of parallels.
We keep hearing we have to do business differently the status quo won't work anymore. For the recording industry I think the days of "forcing" people to pay outrageous prices for talent "they" choose to promote are over. $25.00 for a 12 track c.d. with at best questionable musical talent...see Spears...Agullara...etc. is not acceptable to a lot of people. I sure don't want any of their recordings yet the companies spend multi
millions "marketing" this so called talent to "make" me feel I "need" to have it. Maybe they "need" to spend "some" of this time / money on quality artists such as Robben who might not look so good in a bra and tight jeans but can put a quality 12 track c.d. out that has some meat to it.

Take advantage of tech. The internet is there and it is not going to go away. I see other artists breaking away from the norm and exploring avenues not available until recently. Phish, Dave Matthews Counting Crows and Prince are all either exploring,distributing or selling live board recordings over their own web sites. From what I read...please correct me if I am wrong...the live shows are the property of the artists or venues they play, not the record companies. The way I see it the marketing is already done. You have threads as long as this one or longer already on your site all about aquiring "live" music. Obviously there is a market. If you don't fill the need some scumbag low quality e-bay "bootlegger" will,and make a tidy sum do'n it. These don't have to be highly produced releases. I am used to,and love nothing more than a quality,complete board recording with some source info. By doing this we can in one swoop support Robben and take the market away from the "bootleggers" and their inferior quality product.

Lastly.. the internet is not only for "free" music. I have purchased many c.ds and d.v.ds including some of Robben's at various sites including "Blue Rok'it". This is I.M.H.O. is one reason why stores such as Tower Records K-Mart...ect are having a hard time of it. Now a days you can buy in your home. Why "go" somewhere to be told by some rude sales person they don't have Robben's c.d. or have any idea who he is???
I know it is hard sometimes, with some of the things you must see in your business, but try to have a "little" faith in human nature. Most people want to do the right thing when given a choice. I can honestly say I have never D/L'ed or traded a "legit" release of any artist and never will. That stuff is to be bought to support the artists I.M.H.O. I would treat the live stuff the same way were it to be released "officially". Most others, at least on this site, probably would as well.

dodgeboy...It's all about the music...Never for sale...Never for profit Cool

telefunk1 · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:14 pm Post subject:

Dodge:

Couple of comments. Although I purchase stuff on line, I prefer to seek out independent retail outlets first, like Waterloo Records in Austin. Not only am I supporting the artist by buying the "official" release I am also supporting a locally owned business. Two parts of the equation win in this case. And when I do buy on line I try and go to the source, like Blue Rockit.

You say: "Obviously there is a market. If you don't fill the need some scumbag low quality e-bay "bootlegger" will,and make a tidy sum do'n it." I don't buy this as a reason for an artist to provide a product he/she is not comfortable or satisfied with. This is the old, "if your friends jumped off a cliff would you jump off, too," argument. Just because the technology and means exists to provide instant gratification off a sound board ten minutes after the lights come up does not mean that you have to do it!

And I think instant gratification, a lack of patience, and a sense of entitlement (where one is not justified) has a lot to do with this debate. Enjoy what you have, and in Robben's case this constitutes a considerable amount of "product."