The D-Two I mentioned earlier is being used with a few amps I have: an Egnater TOL 100 combo (pre-Rocktron) and an Eganter 50 head through a Bogner 2 X12 Shiva cabinet. I'm also in the process of having a Guytron GT 100 made. In other words, all my amps are pretty high-end and sound fantastic without effects. The D-two sounds great, I just don't know how much greater the 2290 will sound.
I would love to try one out, but I have not found a music store in Michigan over the last 10 years who has one in stock. If anyone knows of a store in Michigan or Ohio (I'd be willing to drive) who stocks the 2290, let me know.
Oh, now we know that it isn't a case of garbage in, garbage out. In that case, you will certainly hear the difference between the 2290 and the D-Two or just about any other delay unit you've tried. Like I said, the sound quality really is head and shoulders above any other unit, even the other high-end units. Whether that noticeable improvement is worth the noticeable increase in the cost of the unit is something only you can decide for yourself.
If, after using it a while, you determine that the improvement doesn't justify the extra cost, you will have no difficulty selling the 2290 on Ebay. So, you don't really risk much to try it out because the market demand for the unit is strong. I would suggest that you buy a slightly used 2290 instead of a new one because of the depreciation factor. New, it will cost you around $1600, but you won't be able to recover that much if you sell it. Used (around $1,000), you can pretty much sell it for the same price you paid for it. The 2290 is built like a tank and engineered to survive the holicost; so, as long as the cosmetics don't indicate abuse, it's safe to buy used.
I am the proud owner of a 2290 and I appreciate the improvement in sound quality it has over every other dedicated delay I've used. Although I miss some of the tricks my former delay units could do (for example, wide-field stereo pan of multiple taps timed closely together for a resonant doubling effect), I'm happy with the overall improvement in sound quality provided by the 2290. However, I can tell you that it hasn't made me a better player in any way (very little room for improvement anyway :-), and the vast majority of my audience wouldn't know the difference between the 2290 and a $20 pedal delay. These are the tough choices that we face as consumers today, and I wouldn't want it any other way, having lived through times in the not so distant past when you had few choices if any. Enjoy the fruits of your labor; you can't take it with you, and your kids will probably sell it all anyway when you're gone.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: Re: DDLs and live performance
iamthewalrus wrote:
OK - I'm going to be provocative: although I think it's likely most of us would be able to tell the difference between a bunch of ddls in our living room or the studio I seriously doubt any of us, without getting really lucky, would be able to tell the difference as a listener in a live performance situation. Bass pumping, maybe a B3 chugging, a trap drum kit with the snare snappin' and cymbals ringing and all, there's just no way.
Personally, I thought the amount of ddl I could hear at the last Sunday Yoshi's performance in Oakland this year was too much and getting in the way of Robben's attack - maybe that's what he wants to hear these days but I wasn't keen on it.
Cheers,
I also have noticed the increasing level of his delay signal over the last few times I've seen him perform. I think kirk95 also commented recently that he had noticed how wet the mix had become. However, I didn't find it objectionable, just noticeable and surprising.
Are you guys running these in series or parallel? I always run delays in the loop as parallel, full wet and just let as much back in as I want to hear of the slap return. Can't imagine running my carefully designed tube front end through a bunch of op amps and A/D-D/A converters. The 2290 has an analog pass through of the primary signal, as do the Rocktron's and the lowly Alesis (see Garth's current rig). Most effects run everything through an A/D conversion, process everything, then pump it back out through a D/A. All that finely crafted tone gets homogized like if was run through a sampler, because it has been. One easy way to tell if the effect is sampling the main signal is to find one of those Mesa's like the Rectoverb that has a knob on the back that blends between series and parallel loops. Hook the effect box up with no effects turned on, the levels up on the effect and the send and returns on the amp. Slowly turn the knob from series to parallel. The slight delay in the units that digitize everything will cause a phase shift as you go towards parallel.
The only problem with my Intellifex is that it goes in 5ms increments. There isn't any 116, I had to settle for 115
115 may be okay for you and a lot of other players who can't hear or appreciate the difference between 115 and 116 ms. But for those who, like Robben, CAN hear the difference, that extra millisecond is VERY important and worth every penny even though the audience probably wouldn't care if Robben were using a parrot instead of a 2290.
please bear no grudge against me, but I am not entirely with you on this one.....
The same applies to my ears, Robben's ears, Dumbles and TC's.
Peace.
Of course I bear you no grudge. We all have our varied reasons for listening to music and therefore have our varied reasons for hearing the elements of songs in different ways. I will never be able to listen to a Robben tune and tell you which guitar, or amp, or effect, or settings he used and in what way any of those may be different from the way they were in the song before or after it. Or even, from the last time he recorded or performed the song. Frankly, I actually don't even care most times. Those things are just not the reasons I am listening to, judging, or emoting to music.
My tastes and preferences lean toward the song writing and performance more than disliking/enjoying a song because he used a TC rather than a Korg unit, or no delay at all, or whether he used a Marshal stack versus a Pignose.
If you can hear those differences, and that is what is important to you about a tune, then I am happy for you. If the kind of gear used is what decides quality music and generates emotion for you, then I sincerely wish you happy listening! Nothing at all elitist about that, my friend. I wish you much joy dissecting your music. And I will continue to enjoy Robben's songs and performances, for the songs and performances themselves, on whatever varied equipment he decides to play those same songs on.
Rock on, Dude!
Daved,
It appears to me that we're getting nowhere with this discussion....
I feel that somewhere along the line I haven't managed to convey my point of view since I feel that you have misinterpreted my previous posts. On the other hand I still don't think I've understood your point either ....
Please help me clarify if I have understood correctly what you are saying:
- if Robben hears "the difference" in a Dumble or a TC2290 (and bytheway has owned and used one for 15 years) - he's an "Artist who CAN hear"?
- if I hear "the difference" in a Dumble or a TC2290 (and bytheway haven't even considered buying either of the two) - I am a gearhead and I am "dissecting" music?
If this would be the case, logic would tell me that either I am an "Artist who CAN hear" as well or Robben is a gearhead.
Equipment is just part of the big picture and in it's own, small and variable percentage it does count towards the end-result of what a musician is doing, which ultimately contributes to generating those emotions which is the drive for both of us to listen to music.
Judging from Robben's choice of equipment, with all other things being equal (tone, taste, technique and tenacity, etc, etc...) - he'd rather play with good gear than with bad gear.
The same applies for me although, with my set of values & current financial situation, I find it unreasonable today to consider the purchase of a TC or a Dumble (this doesn't mean that I dissaprove of it or will not do it one day).
I don't think that this makes me a lesser musician than what I already am, or a lesser admirer of Robben's music.
Peace.
Marin
P.S. I am not trying to "clone" anyone or anyone's sound (I'll will learn get inspiration from other peoples work, but this is what accomplished musicians do as well). To me, "cloning" is like having the ability to speak but having nothing of your own to say.
________
RHODE ISLAND DISPENSARIES
Last edited by marinblues on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:58 am; edited 4 times in total
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:00 am Post subject: Touchy thread
Hi , once i(ve seen Robben playing a White DD from boss with a tube screamer and 2 fender red knobs. So i can't hear the difference, but i think some white boss digital delays are really cool and they cost a little more than 20 bucks.
Nothing can beat an analog tape echo but it's noisy and needs care ......
Everybody wants a TC because at the height of 80-90 Tone frenzy it was the only effect unit able to handle Midi Patch changes interfaced with other units, Please correct me if i am wrong. Therefore a lot of addicts just want a TC more affordable than the Eventide harmonizer , even if there is no reason (i mean a reason that makes a REAL sense).
I knew a guy in GIT , he was buying a rack mount gear each month , he was only trying to keep us on nerves with jealousy, one day i asked him where he wanted to go with a rack like Luke or Scott Henderson, and he told me : Ya know sucker, when i'll be back in France for auditions with Wedding Bands i am sure i'll have the gig with this Refrigerator even if the guy plays better than me .............................................................Oh yes after 12 months his rack was as big as a FRIGIDAIRE .....................
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Touchy thread
Bluelobster wrote:
Hi , once i(ve seen Robben playing a White DD from boss with a tube screamer and 2 fender red knobs. So i can't hear the difference, but i think some white boss digital delays are really cool and they cost a little more than 20 bucks.
Nothing can beat an analog tape echo but it's noisy and needs care ......
Everybody wants a TC because at the height of 80-90 Tone frenzy it was the only effect unit able to handle Midi Patch changes interfaced with other units, Please correct me if i am wrong. Therefore a lot of addicts just want a TC more affordable than the Eventide harmonizer , even if there is no reason (i mean a reason that makes a REAL sense).
I knew a guy in GIT , he was buying a rack mount gear each month , he was only trying to keep us on nerves with jealousy, one day i asked him where he wanted to go with a rack like Luke or Scott Henderson, and he told me : Ya know sucker, when i'll be back in France for auditions with Wedding Bands i am sure i'll have the gig with this Refrigerator even if the guy plays better than me .............................................................Oh yes after 12 months his rack was as big as a FRIGIDAIRE .....................
Blob,
yeah, but if a good looking fairy came over and with a TC2290 and a DD3 and asked you to express a wish, what would you choose (at no cost)?
(the question is referred to guitar equipment only. )
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:23 pm Post subject:
Marin,
Bottomline? All I am saying is:
If a performer can hear differences that are important to him, important enough to pay big bucks, then he should do so.
If a player can't hear differences important enough to pay big bucks (like ME!) then he should NOT do so.
Why does Robben use the TC/Dumble... because he LIKES it.
Why do I not use a TC/Dumble... because it is not an important issue to ME.
Why do you use/not use a TC/Dumble... that's stricktly up to you and your own self evaluations.
It doesn't make Robben any better than me, it doesn't make him any better than you. Because Robben uses a Dumble and TC2290 doesn't make me any less of a person than him, it doesn't make you any less of a performer than Robben.
Robben LIKES the TC2290 better than any other delay out there, so he uses it. There is NOTHING else that matters concerning that point.
Use, or don't use, whatever makes YOU happy.... hold your head up, be proud of your decision, and.... express thyself.
Cheers! _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
Just to add gasoline to the fire: today I was over at a friend's place and got to play with his new T-Rex "The Replica." This is a really fine sounding ddl in a compact format. Does most ddl things a guitarist wants plus tap tempo and MIDI footpedal contol if you want it. If you want less "color" than most units and a real "liquid" natural delay sound you might want to check this one out. Also, their "Mud Honey" overdrive is awesome. These are not inexpensive boxes but really "a cut above."
"Replica - The Replica is a digital delay (up to 2000ms) that also includes an analog circuit. This allows the player (by engaging the "Brown" button) to dial in the warmth usually associated with a 60's tape echo unit. The Replica also features tap tempo and subdivision functions as well as a midi socket that allows external control."
Joined: 19 Feb 2004 Posts: 103 Location: Upper left coast
Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:18 pm Post subject:
I'm not a musician and don't know a delay from a dumble, but I love this thread. Passion, humor, and violent agreement! Wish I could take a worldwide tour and hear every one of YOU play (I would dance, too).
Joined: 15 Aug 2003 Posts: 234 Location: Hartlepool, U.K.
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:06 am Post subject:
Excuse me, Captain Kirk, sir. I have some questions:
1. If those are your feet, is that effects board very large, or do you have very small feet?
2. Do you use this effects pedal bare-footed because a real or perceived improvement in the performance of the effects pedal?
3. Is taking your shoes and socks off akin to removing pickup covers from humbuckers? (Seymour Duncan claims it makes between 15 and 20% difference - ?)
4. Does it make a difference if you play with just socks on?
5. What happens when you play with just one sock on?
6. Does wearing one gren sock and on blue sock make any difference?
7. How about shoes, but no socks? Expensive shoes versus cheap shoes?
I'm dying to find out ... _________________ "Creativeness often consists of merely turning up what is already there. Did you know that right and left shoes were only thought up a little more than a century ago?" - Bernice Fitz-Gibbon 1894-1982
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