Robben Ford Discussion

[juspasinby2003]

Can anybody offer any theory insight into Robben's solo in the "Work Song" on the Butterfield Tribute CD?

I can transcribe the notes and parrot them with practice, but I'm hoping one of you hotshots (Berklee Alumni and maybe GIT postgrads, or anyone) can illuminate the theory behind Robben's powerful solo. What are the scale origins of some of the more exotic phrases he plays, and what, if anything, strikes you as a particularly clever/creative/effective harmonic device he employs.

I'm seeking to broaden my knowledge and deepen my insight into Robben's genius here and learn more about why Robben's solo works so well and sounds so damned good. Anybody?

[Aeolian]

I think the "secret" here is the be-bop phrasing. This solo floored me the first time I heard it (on a 'real' jazz radio station, no less). Ran out, got the CD and started trying to figure out what wild stuff Robben was playing.

Essentially, the solo is F minor (the key of the song) with the addition of a flat 5 and a raised 5. The flat 5 is a Bloomfield trademark, so it's use is almost mandatory. Not sure about the raised 5. It's used as more than a passing tone. Not being very well schooled, I tend to think of this when playing it as the 3rd of Bb minor (the 4 chord of the song). In parts he uses all three notes, b5, 5, +5 for a kind of chromatic be-bop thing. Other parts seem more Bb minorish to me. I suppose you could say that the b5 is a b9 of the 4 chord and the whole thing is a Bb minor substitution.

Jimmy Bruno says that after you play with the 3rd and 7th, you can alter the 5th and then the 9th and that's about it. The way Robben talks at the clinics, it seems he has also simplified things to this extent. But I think these tonal ideas got into his ear through the study of more sophisticated substitutions. So I too would love to find out what sort of substitution encompases both alterations of the 5th.

This reminds me of "Going Nowhere" where Robben runs a straight D major scale over the E-G vamp and makes it sound like some beautiful melody.

Maybe I'll coin a new term here, "Tone Phrasing" for the way in which Robben alters the tone throughout a riff. So; you have the time phrasing, where the note is in time. The dynamic phrasing, how loud the note is compared to others. And the Tone Phrasing, how bright or dark the note is compared to others. Everyone does this to some extent, sometimes unintentionally, but Robben and Larry are masters of using it to make even simple concepts sound special.
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[telefunk1]

I was waiting for someone to post a serious reply before I chimed in with my usual smart ass response. Thanks, A, now I can get busy!

In a nutshell, I think the reason Robben's solos work so well is that he does NOT think about all this stuff when he plays and creates. One of the reasons I really admire his music is that he has the tools and vocabulary to cross musical boundaries but to do it transparently. When you listen to his choice of notes and phrases you don't "hear" him thinking (and now I will play a Carpathian scale over a flat 7th raised ninth!). He just does it because he is able to use his knowledge, so to speak, to support his creative side, rather than vice versa. Way too many players rely on technique rather than taste. While it is great to have both, they need to support each other, not dominate.

In contrast, I have never been a great Eric Johnson fan, because when I listen to him I get the sense that he sets up his solos with his vast knowledge of technique - there is too much connecting the dots with technique rather than open space and breathing room. (OK - I am not bashing EJ, just using him for comparative purposes, so I am not interested in debating his talent, or whatever.)

It all comes down to listening to a wide variety of music and styles, learning things from all these influences, being able to assimilate what stirs you from each, then forgetting it when the opportunity presents itself to create. Robben seems, to me, to be a master at that, based on what I hear and what those of you who attend his clinics tell us.

[Bluelobster]

Thanks to you Telefunk, you 've just put everything back in "perspective".
Even if it is the theory corner. The place whe we can debate over these silly notes.
You give me the opportunitie to stress again my own obsession:
I love Robben because he is a F.....g great BLUES PLAYER.
And the way his work over mastering the guitar and being able to play all styles , this way i will love and respect all my life because it was just a powerful tool to express the blues , the real blues , the one you feel deep in your guts , therefore .................

[Aeolian]

When the good captain set this up, it said we could discuss technique here. I think Robben's tone production and his "voicing" of notes within a phrase is just as essential to his sound as his choice of notes. It is this "singing" quality that makes it stand apart. I agree with TF that you don't hear Robben "thinking". Rather you hear him using the guitar as if it were a voice and he is joyfully singing. While I appreciate the harmonic sophistication and relief from endless minor pentatonic wanking, it is the way in which Robben delivers those notes that attracts me to his playing. It's one thing to transcribe the riff and play what you wrote down. Even if you play them at the same space in time, it still sounds like the adults in a Charlie Brown cartoon until you add the words (coloring of one sound as different from another). When I listen to something like Minor Elegance, you can hear Joe Diorio is not playing every note right on the beat, he is utilizing some phrasing. And he is not even hitting every note with the same dynamic level. But they all sound the same. When Robben comes in, it's like "La doop wa do". There is a vocal quality that along with the phrasing makes you fall into the music of what he is doing.

The physical technique can be disected and emulated. But that only gives the vowels and sylables. The genius of Robben is to put those into words and those words into an interesting story.

To echo what TF and Blob said, my last teacher said that thinking is for when you are practicing. To figure out new ideas and get them into your vocabulary. When you are playing, you have to let go of thinking as much as possible. Sounds like Phil Tsubo
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[Bill Morgan]

[henkholland]

Interesting thread. I’m a guitar player for more then 30 years I believe. I used to say I’m wearing glasses and I’m playing a guitar. It’s a part of me. Perhaps I can’t see things so good without playing music.
Especially Robben is the one who start my fire wanting playing more jazzy chords and outside. Not in a technical point of view, but I got the feeling it creates more possibilities to express my self. With my technical background I also was searching for theory, scale and chords insights, etc. But I also find out it’s just one dimension.
I’m also trying to paint. And my teacher is a great admirer of Miles Davis. We often talk about the relationship between painting and playing music. With growing in painting it’s the same as with growing in playing guitar. At least that’s my experience. With painting you have to learn something about coulors, styles, tools, watching and observing, etc, But to paint or play “a story” you have to put something in it from your self. You have to create your own concept. Sure, practise will help. But it also has something to do with having guts, being connected, feeling free to express and taking risks. Also when the public is watching you. My paintings are the best when I loose thinking and get the flow.
To know this doesn’t mean that I’m a good player or painter, but I like to go that way. I think Robben has all these things together to express himself on a very artistic level. For me, painting is also a way to understand some more what I’m doing with music and playing guitar. I really understand what Robben means with painting when he talks about this subject in interviews and his Clinics. Perhaps a way for those who don’t like the academic way.
Henk

[juspasinby2003]

I agree that it's not a good idea to be thinking too much about theory when performing a piece, but, reading some of these posts, one might believe that any effort to understand and explore the theory behind Robben's work is only going to hinder your development or, worse, lead you entirely in the wrong direction. If that is indeed the point of some of the responses, please forgive the following observations.

At any given moment, Robben is fully aware of and can name the scales out of which his lines arise. Most of his instructional videos, for example "The Blues and Beyond," clearly show that he knows exactly what he is doing, the theory of it, and exactly why it works at any point in the progression. He can tell you when he's playing in the diminished, harmonic minor or melodic minor scale and the degree of the scale that begins his line. He can and does state in those videos that he favors certain scales over certain progressions (VI II V's for example), and he can identify alternate scales that also work well but that he doesn't tend to use as much.

That is not to say that he "thinks" scales or modes or plans the structure of his solos or his lines ahead of the moment. But he clearly knows and understands exactly what he is doing and the theory of it. If you study his scale choices and practice generating lines from those scales at the same point in the progression, you will eventually assimilate those ideas into your own solos until they become second nature (no thought required).

Unless you have a great deal of trial and error time and patience, you're not going to get those tonalities into your solos any other way. You could try to parrot what you hear, but you will have very little, if any, flexibility. You could try to mimic the tonal color and feel of a certain passage, but you would have to be gifted indeed to pull it off and not sound moronic, and you still wouldn't have a enough grasp on what you are doing to be able to pull it off the next time you try. Also, unless you understand what you are doing, you will not be aware of any alternate choices you can make to achieve the same or a similar effect, and your lines will be stiff and repetitive for the lack of variety in your choices.

It's the intensive practice, and the ear development that practive provides, that enables you to "forget about it" and play from the heart. I have always played from the heart, but I am embarrased to hear what I used to play before the wisdom acquired from knowledge and practice corrected my technique and refined my taste. Moreover, all the Zen wisdom in the world will not of itself enable you to play "The Work Song" in a tasteful manner. You must devote yourself to practice, and you need to know what to practice. Tell me it ain't so.

[telefunk1]

In order to discuss technique, one needs to also be open to a discussion of "anti-technique" or its opposite, which can be defined as taste, emotion, or whatever. They go together and in certain hands and minds, like Robben, the balance is damn near perfect more times than not. Again, this is what attracted me to his music the first time I ever heard him many years ago with Spoon - here was someone who played the blues great, but every now and then slipped in something extra, during a transition or turn around. Then I wanted to figure out what that extra stuff was, which lead me to expand my listening and mind and explore artists like Coltrane that I might never have been interested in.

Believe me, I am not bashing anyone who wants to explore theory and advanced technique, whatever. I used to bash these types all the time (no surprise there, huh) when I was younger, and back when it was cool to be "self taught." Knowing theory and reading music was not hip, was too formal, and constrained the creative juices. All bullshit, of course, but we absorb the norms of the day and that was then and this is now. There are even editorials and debates in old issues of Guitar Player about this issue; I ran across one the other day. Got a good laugh. What I am saying is that there has to be a balance, just like in life in general.

In response to justpasnby's last comment, well said, and the test of a true artist is that the knowledge is put to good use - if Robben has all these tools they do not get in the way of good music, rather they provide him with an arsenal to draw upon when the muse strikes! Like people always say, "he makes it look so easy." Getting to that point certainly takes years of work and trial and error.

[Leftbender]

[Aeolian]

I don't think that studying and playing from the heart are mutually exclusive. They just occur at separate times. I am mostly what a friend calls a "street" player who has picked up a bit of schooling over the years. It isn't the way I approach music but I find myself needing to delve into theory when I feel things getting stale and repetitive.

I'd like to take a minor exception to juspassinby's comment that at any given momment, Robben is fully aware of what he is playing out of. My experience of Robben at clinics and while watching things like "The Blues and Beyond) is that a certain times he is very aware that he is pulling from a whole/half scale or tritone sub, but at other times he has to stop and think about it for a bit. I think at one time he sat down with Don Mock or Joe Diorio, or analyzed some Coltrane thing, and worked out various substitutions and alterations. But he has been using them so long, they are a part of him the way a basic BB lick is part of all of us. You don't even think about it until someone points out that something you played sounds like BB. Then you run it back through in your head and go "oh yeah, I guess I practiced that a lot when I was 15". Or someone makes a comment about a shift you made at some point and you think back and go "oh, that's just switching from minor pentatonic to major" but you weren't thinking deliberately about doing that, and then you remember working out Eric's solo to Badge and realized were you got it from.

So even though I never went to Berkley or GIT, I welcome discussions of scales and substitutions. It's like reading a book and discovering some new words. It just makes you more literate and interesting if you are able to effectively add them to your vocabulary. Of course if you just spew them out of context or force them into places they don't fit, you won't around any listener interest, you'll just turn people off. I think what we're after is turning people on, in the way that Robben touches us.

And thinking occasionally while playing isn't always bad. It keeps things interesting. I was fortunate to catch Garth at the Baltic last weekend. Every so often you could see a light go on over his head, a kind of "oh yeah, this would fit in great right here" and then he'd go ahead and play it wonderfully, and it would fit because he knows what he's doing. And then that would inspire variations and alterations that just flowed out of him because he'd already established the idea. Then at other times his vast vocabulary would come into play and something would just fall out of him because it felt right at the moment. He closed the night with Europa and at one point in the head, he stuffed some altered riff in there that just floored me. It went by so quickly I can't remember what it was, and didn't bother to try and ask him about it as I'd bet he wouldn't remember what is was either. He just obviously felt like dressing up the melody a bit at that point and this thing just popped out. (Of course, if you're reading this Garth, and you do remember, I'd love to know )
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There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
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[jconstant]

[Aeolian]

Of course JPB still wants to know what mode/scale Work song uses. And so do I.

Maybe we ought to break the Theory corner into two parts. Aquiring vocabulary and using that vocabulary.

In the back of my mind I've been trying to come up with a way to explain in words Robben's right hand technique and how he alters tone within a riff, something my limited schooling can contribute. I've shown people this but getting it into a one-sided explaination is tough. Even if someone could learn this from text on a forum, it wouldn't make them sound any more like Robben than if Scott or one of the other Berklee cats explained tri-tone substitutions.

As was well stated above, one has to take all these things, practice them until they're second nature, and then use them to create a personal voice. When you walk around, you don't think about what you are doing, you think about where you are going. But when you were learning to walk, it took all your concentration (and lots of trial and error) to move each leg, one at a time, and stay upright.
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[juspasinby2003]

For some reason, I feel like I should apologize for asking for knowledge. Will I? Nah!

Knowledge of music theory is not, I repeat, not the goal. The knowledge is merely a road map you use to more efficiently get to your destination. The destination, of course, is music - the music you hear in your head or admire coming from great artists like Robben. The goal is "Mindless Mastery."

Most of us learned what we know the hard way. We learned by ear and by transcribing what we heard from our favorite artists. I have plenty of worn out LP's to prove that point as I'm sure most of us here do. [For our younger members - you wouldn't believe the Herculean effort we had to make to learn lines from recordings] Over time, I heard other variations of certain tensions and colors that were very similar to what I had learned and already knew how to play from my earlier efforts. Those variations were much easier for me to learn and incorporate into my vocabulary because of my prior APPLIED knowledge.

Now, somebody like Robben comes along and completely blows me away with exquisite lines generated from the same basic ideas I had been working on but, after hearing Robben, knew I hadn't yet fully explored or mastered. Until I became accustomed to my current approach (analyze, understand, practice, and assimilate - AUPA - not a catchy anagram), I would approach this new material the same way I did in my formative years - by ear. The "by ear" method is fine and works, eventually. But if I can accelerate that process and assimilate new ideas any faster or more thoroughly than I can "by ear," I'm going to do it.

Such is the value of music theory. It can shorten your path and show you the variations of similar ideas that you haven't yet heard. Eventually, the ear method would lead you to the same place, and that's how countless artists got their chops in the first place. But it's hard to turn your back on a method that enables you to learn the material more thoroughly and faster. Again, the mindless mastery of the music is the goal, not the knowledge of abstract ideas, but the application of those ideas in your practice routines to get you to the goal asap.

Now we've all heard and have been bored to tears by self-appointed music experts who like to dazzle you with longwinded pontifications showcasing not their ideas, but their command of the technical terminology. It's usually best to ask these people to turn it down because they only contribute to the ambient noise pollution and can cause your brain to excrete dendrite goo which clouds clear thinking. You might have noticed that such babbling experts usually don't have a guitar in their hands when they do their theory lectures. That, of course, is because 9 out of 10 of them couldn't play their way out of a wet paper bag. So, please forget about these idiots in this discussion of the merits of theory. They have lost the forrest for the trees and they will gladly lead you to the same place if you follow. That is not what I advocate here.

My call to the Berklee or GIT grads was my way of showing respect to those among us who have demonstrated some accomplishment in and understanding of music priciples and concepts. I also find that such persons are in the best position to give me the information I need on certain topics. Scottl is one such accomplished member. So is our host, David Henderson. I am sure there are several others here. I like to challenge these people to use their educations to help advance our understanding of our common interests, Robben's music. Their education doesn't make them better musicians than the rest of us (which they may or may not be). Only endless practice and dedication can do that, with or without the degree. But it does give them a framework useful for analyzing, understanding, and communicating the musical ideas that Robben uses to express himself "from the heart." Hence, I listen when these people start using their educations to say something meaningful and possibly useful. I never meant to imply that only the privileged or elite snobs with fancy pants degrees in music need bother to post a response. Hey, I'll steal licks that I like from anybody - even the soloist in "Band In A Box."

To sum up: knowing all the names of all the modes of the melodic minor scale will do nothing to improve your playing. But if you know a certain scale formula by heart (second nature - no thought required) and have developed the ear for it through lots of practice, you are in a better position to understand and quickly assimilate new musical ideas into to your musical expression. Knowing the name of a scale is useful for communication only. Playing lines out of the scale at the right time, because it sounds good, without having to think about it at all is the goal. Analyzing and understanding when and how to use a certain scale and its color tones to enhance your expression will help you structure more efficient practice routines to get you to the goal of mindless mastery that Robben seems to enjoy. It's a beautiful place to be.

Make no mistake about this. Robben may be gifted from God, but he worked his ass off to learn how to use his gifts. Hard work is still required for any of us, but you can learn to work smarter, more efficiently, with better returns on your investment of practice time.

[kirk95]

and I was all ready to take that solo apart and run down all the chord scales and subs for you guys. Then I read Bill's post....

I think once you've internalized all the theory part that's when something else starts to take over. It's like the ideas are coming from somewhere else and you just go with it. The solos play themselves and you're just there listening like everybody else.

Robben has just evolved it further than most. But you can feel the connection to someplace else! Kind of like Miles! It touches the soul!


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