Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:54 am Post subject:
It says "unplayed", with all the tags and stickers.
What in the world did he buy it for then?
A musical instrument is meant to be used to create music. This isn't the NYSE. This actually kind of ticks me off. I know so many great musicians who will never be able to have a tool like this to expand their craft, because of folks who are not musicians doing things like this. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 29 Jan 2004 Posts: 1504 Location: Methuen, MA
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:46 am Post subject:
I'm with you, Aeolian. When I bought my Baker last month, the first words out of some people's mouths were, "Are you going to play it?" I'll tell you, it was an exercise in facial expression and vocal restraint to reply in a kind and positive way, like, "Well, of course I will!" as opposed to, "Why the f**k wouldn't I?"
Hold on a minute guys. Watch your assumptions (which happen to be misguided here). I happen to know this guy (bigdoins) and he is an excellent musician who happens also to be a collector of many fine, rare, and expensive instruments. It's really not out of line for such a musician/collector to have his or her "players" as well as his or her "collectables."
I can understand how someone can appreciate a fine instrument solely for its aesthetic visual and historic value. I know some people who always buy two of everything they acquire - one to use and one to keep and admire in unused condition. Your values may lead you to conclude that all guitars are meant to be played and not simply put on display, but your values have no relevance to others in the real world who hold different values.
I also fail to see how anyone is deprived of an opportunity to own and play such an instrument by the activities of such a musician/collector. The market (including the NYSE) is wide open and free, and if a great musician wants to acquire such an instrument to expand their craft, then what is stopping them? Since this instrument is available, anyone, great musician or not, may purchase it and do with it as they wish.
Am I missing something here? If so, please inform me, and I'll thank you for it.
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:50 am Post subject: G.A.S
Hi there, the first time i heard about G.AS. i thought it was kinda "weird"
joke , something relating with "MAD" review, or Marx Bros, or even a kind of F.Z fashion of makin' fun out of the inner jealousy being in each of us , or more simply this typically human psychotic way of getting things for storing in order to jack off a dead zone in our brains (come on look in your grandma cellar or in your mom bedroom , look at your grandpa garage or try to find the place he never let you look at ...). And we are making fun out of ants Can U believe it.
More seriously , it happens to me that my inner uncontroled love for america ( i've said this yet, it started at age 6, i can't help ) & Jimi Hendrix & Blues (Thanks again Robben for Carrying the flame that high, and i don't talk about olympics , just regular pleasure) have been deeply tempered through the past years.
I mean i realize (as an european) that you people are a brand new nation
(almost like a 5 years baby) and are filling the lack of background or culture with this uncontrolable need to pave a past for the future : therefore some are going mad with Guitars, Amps, Corvette, Chevrolets,Levi's Jeans, Santiago boots, juke boxes, cocacola paraphernalia and a lot of other things i think i can't even figure out why?? ouch , i hope i was clear. and some others while being mad have still their brain making a right balance between income and outcome.
Bigdoin is Doing big , but not more or less than some others dudes on this board (even not americans ) just speaking & dealing gear.
That only thing bores me to death . Why Blues is not the primary point .??. Ok i can deal with some people only loving the yellowjacket stuff but i love too to play my Cheap Epiphone Korea made in 2000 to death. I am not gonna make a nervous breakdown with a baker though i must admit i will love to have a Johnny A model, but hey i am still doing internet lottery on a daily basis (even trying to win a green card )
and the day it will happens (cross your fingers , i'll bring you all in jamaica)
i will be the first in line for having my Fuchs and A two rock and a with a and some of and ..............................................................
Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 26 Location: NEW YORK,NEW YORK
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:58 am Post subject: Instruments/Life
I listed this guitar to give other musicians a opprotunity to enjoy one of the best guitars I have played in a long time...Gene and the boys really out did themselves on this one.. it is fantastic.....Why Sell??? I have many guitars and cant play them all...
just to lead you guys in the right direction..the beauty of instruments is if you need to sell there is a market...No not the NYSE Aeolian, maybe better...at times....look at the Guitar Center stock bet you spend some time and money there,should have purchased the stock...did very well may have put you in the position to own the Baker
some on the board refer to Ebay as Evilbay....STUPID! should have bought the stock....could have bought the Baker and a new house!
This is a Great world, and we have place's we can go and buy what we want when we want...for a price....just get the facts straight ...dont be a ..hypocrite
\Hyp"o*crite\, n. [F., fr. L. hypocrita, Gr. ? one who plays a part on the stage, a dissembler, feigner. See Hypocrisy.] One who plays a part; especially, one who, for the purpose of winning approbation of favor, puts on a fair outside seeming; one who feigns to be other and better than he is; a false pretender to virtue or piety; one who simulates virtue or piety.
The hypocrite's hope shall perish. --Job viii. 13.
I dare swear he is no hypocrite, but prays from his heart. --Shak.
Syn: Deceiver; pretender; cheat. See Dissembler.
hypocrite
n : a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he does not hold [syn: dissembler, phony, phoney, pretender]
Many regulars on the board should always read back what they write...dont comment on RF's sound...or say you would rather hear a b3 rather then a sax...imagine if he sounded the same and played the exact same way every time.....would you like it...
in closing ...I will take serious offers on the Baker Robben Ford...email away..I promise it will make someone happy!
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:34 am Post subject: O M G
O M G in Europe is for Organism Genetically Modified , OMG = OGM
Simple . uh. in this case i am not going to start a thread about transgenic Corn, or subtilities in both of our languages. no i am simply spell Oh my good.
( crooner voice like humming in my brain : what have you done again, a mess on this board..... )
Why stressing the "there is the law of offer & demand" thing , it's flawless.
Joined: 29 Jan 2004 Posts: 1504 Location: Methuen, MA
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:38 am Post subject:
I suppose that if I could afford to buy 2 of the exact same Baker, that I'd put one of them in a locked display case to be admired like a piece of art, but only after playing it at least once or twice. But, since I can't even afford the one I have, thanks to G.A.S., I have been, and will continue to play the heck out of it, even if I can't really play...
Good luck selling the Baker RF, and I'm sure you'll get top dollar for it!
~JohnnyZ~
P.S. Blooby, if'n you one day do win that lottery and take us all to Jamaica, after you get your Fuchs and TR, we'll have to go stand in the spleef line... _________________ Soul on Eleven
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:50 pm Post subject:
So as to not make anybody wrong, let's frame this as a philosophical debate.
I disagree on many facets of Bigdoins' response. I didn't put together the e-bay auction with him or I would have framed my initial response more carefully so as not to offend (I should have done this anyway, something I continue to have to work on) so I will take some the response as a normal human defensive reaction, and not try to start something counter productive.
On to the points at hand.
It is my opinion that well heeled collectors have driven the cost of instruments out of the reach of working musicians. Even though he could make magic with it, I doubt Robben could buy a real 59 Les Paul. He has to go to GC and buy a reissue. I have a friend out here, who Robben regards as a peer, who couldn't buy that Baker without a loan from his family. I suspect Robben would be strapped to replace many of the vintage instruments he found 20+ years ago. The only way the working musicians I know get good gear is though endorsement deals. So that's what I mean by depriving working players of access to these instruments. Unless you become the next big thing on the radio (not gonna happen in a blues/fusion/jazz realm) you aren't going to be buying any wonderful vintage players instruments anytime soon.
There is another inference that I am philosophically diametrically opposed to. The idea that one should just buy the stock of the winner, and then go out and splurge on whatever shiny objects capture ones immediate attention. While I have no issues with e-bay (interesting use of the internet) in and of itself. I do regard the stock exchanges as the loose cannon on the deck of the economy. Definition of a loose cannon: Something that has basic usefulness, but in an unrestrained condition, causes more damage than its usefulness would warrant. As in a cannon on the deck of a ship which can be used to defend the ship, but unleashed from it's moorings, slides around the deck, breaking everything in its path and possibly sinking the ship. In my opinion, the stock exchange has gone from being a useful supporting mechanism for capitalizing businesses, to a raison d'etre all on it's own. It creates nothing of value on it's own besides the ability for clever and opportunistic people to siphon off money out of a productive enterprise. One of the best ideas I ever heard for bringing the stock market under control came from a Pentagon chief of procurement, Dr. William Stackhouse, some 15 years ago. He suggested that a surcharge be put on trades within a time limit. The first trade was free, so Joe citizen could buy and sell stock, but the second trade within 24 hours got a surcharge, a third trade got a higher surcharge, and so on. This was during a time when traders were churning stock to make money off small margin changes. Stackhouse, didn't propose denying them that, but tempering it with these surcharges. If the computer model said they could still make money even with the surcharges, go ahead. The tax/surcharges would be put directly into paying down the federal deficit. 10 years later we got the worse situation where executive compensation was tied to stock valuation, not the company's financial health or profitability. This led executives to do whatever it took to run up the stock regardless of what happened to the company and the rest of the employees. Buying contracts at a loss to run up the topline, ridiculous market projections, arbitrary supplier cost reductions regardless of whether that supplier stayed in business of not.
More fundamentally, my personal philosophy does not regard "because I can" as justification for personal enrichment. As a child camping, I was taught to always leave a place in better shape than I found it, not stripped of whatever suited my immediate desires. I try to conduct the rest of my adult life that way. I don't think that is hypocritical at all. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
So as to not make anybody wrong, let's frame this as a philosophical debate.
I disagree on many facets of Bigdoins' response. I didn't put together the e-bay auction with him or I would have framed my initial response more carefully so as not to offend (I should have done this anyway, something I continue to have to work on) so I will take some the response as a normal human defensive reaction, and not try to start something counter productive.
On to the points at hand.
It is my opinion that well heeled collectors have driven the cost of instruments out of the reach of working musicians. Even though he could make magic with it, I doubt Robben could buy a real 59 Les Paul. He has to go to GC and buy a reissue. I have a friend out here, who Robben regards as a peer, who couldn't buy that Baker without a loan from his family. I suspect Robben would be strapped to replace many of the vintage instruments he found 20+ years ago. The only way the working musicians I know get good gear is though endorsement deals. So that's what I mean by depriving working players of access to these instruments. Unless you become the next big thing on the radio (not gonna happen in a blues/fusion/jazz realm) you aren't going to be buying any wonderful vintage players instruments anytime soon.
[* * *]
Your points are well taken, and the invitation to offer comments as part of a philosophical debate is accepted. As I am sure you are aware, things are not so simple as they may first appear. When you assert that "well heeled collectors have driven the cost of instruments out of the reach of working musicians," isn't that somewhat like complaining that gravity caused an object to fall from the sky and injure your head. You could assign the blame to gravity, to the object, or to the location of your head, and altering any one or more of these variables would affect the outcome, but is it fair and reasonable to single out any one element as the evil cause for you injury?
In the case at issue, one might just as well blame yesterday's guitar manufacturers for not building in sufficient quantity (despite then prevailing market forces) to satisfy today's demand for vintage guitars. Hey, nobody likes to be hit in the head by a falling object, but cursing gravity is an exercise in futility. The prices of vintage instruments are what they are because of supply and demand economics, which involves buyers, sellers, manufacturers, products, money markets, distributors, and marketplaces. To ascribe blame or bad faith to any one or more of those elements for doing what they are expected to do seems pointless and arbitrary.
The point has also been noted that this particular collector is also a gifted musician. He also happens to be very successful in his profession and "well heeled" as a result. Is Robben or his peer (your friend) more worthy of owning a vintage or expensive instrument because some or many would judge their musicianship and accomplishment as greater than this musician/collector's? One could argue that Robben is more worthy, but, as you know, there are some people who just don't appreciate Robbens work; so we come to the question of who should decide who is more worthy. So who should decide [rhetorical question]? The economy makes those decisions automatically and predictably according to fundamental principles of supply and demand. Whether this economic system is good or bad is not the issue. It is what it is. But it is not rational or fair to assign blame or evil motive to any one of a myriad forces at play in the economy to placate one's sense of indignity at Robben's purchase of a 59 reissue, which, by the way, I understand Robben likes very much.
For the record as you know, Robben owns a few rare, collectable, vintage instruments, including a 1954 goldtop Les Paul (just like Mike Bloomfield's first LP which first caught Robben's eyes and ears back in 1967). Robben is reluctant to take his 54 goldtop on the road for fear of damage or theft; although, he does record with it quite a lot. Does Robben's restricted use of his 54 goldtop unfairly deny another gifted musician of the opportunity to use such a magnificant instrument to further his art (guitars are meant to be played, not imprisoned in safe storage)? Of course not.
If we want to advance policies that will redistribute rare, vintage, or expensive guitars to certain artists, we can do that with appropriate legislation. We can mandate artist discounts for certain artists, or we can legislate rights of first refusal to those artists or establish price controls on any instruments we deem to be desireable, or the policy can be advanced and encouraged by a myriad other interventions and impositions to free trade. If we can resolve those pesky problems involving which artists are more worthy and which instruments are more desireable (assuming the artist agrees), then I will support you in that cause. I don't quite fancy the idea of robbing Peter to honor Paul simply because those in power have decided that Paul is more worthy than Peter. In the interim, I will continue to work hard and save my meager earnings to buy that beautiful guitar I've had my eye on for some time now. If I do eventually find the resources and buy it, I hope no one trys to tell me that another player deserves it more.
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1043 Location: Boulder, CO
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:01 am Post subject:
Robben owns a Dumble, a 1960 Tele,a 1954 Les Paul, an early 60's 345, an early 60's Deluxe Reverb...
So what's the problem?
To suggest price controls or timing penalties for buying and selling of anything is not what our economic system is about. It's called free enterprise for a reason. Who are you going to put in control of managing these controls? ... the government? Bush? Kerry? Greenspan?
Hey, I'm the first one to admit that the Free Enterprise system has it's short comings, however the alternative is unthinkable.
I would also like to point out that since the market forces have increased prices on all vintage guitar gear, a huge and robust boutique market for guitars, amps and gear has developed. Today there is more high quality guitar gear available then ever before - all more affordable than the vintage gear. That's the result of the free market forces responding to the market demand. In this case the system seems to be working just fine!
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:05 am Post subject: YES BUT
Robben Discussion Black Baker Robben Ford on Ebay!
bigdoins 13 281 Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:01 am
kirk95
Robben Discussion Bill,The Black RF still around??
bigdoins 2 182 Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:19 pm
bigdoins
Robben Discussion Bill,The Black RF still around??
bigdoins 0 76 Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:35 pm
bigdoins
Robben Discussion BB Kings NYC 3/2/04
[ Goto page: 1, 2 ] gmack 15 659 Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:52 am
gmack
The Daved Zone Black Baker ser# Dumble story PLEASE!
bigdoins 0 257 Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:58 pm
bigdoins
The Daved Zone The Red Baker...
marinblues 8 488 Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:22 pm
Flavum
The Daved Zone DAVED Q: WHAT GUITAR?
bigdoins 7 528 Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:57 pm
bigdoins
The Daved Zone Black baker pickups????
bigdoins 4 324 Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:04 pm
Bill Morgan
Over One Year What did Bigdoin was doin' in fact lurking ,
i've said this once , should have to assert it twice , what is the point to wait for an opportunity to sell a RF baker right now; the point is MONEY , and even if i can 't stress in your moody way of life , there are somethings in my life and the the way i mean it which are way uncompatible with this lucrtative way you're goin' on with - once again Xcuz my poor anglo american language- Therefore i think , to make a long story short, 'coz now i'm tired with myyy english, so be prepared to the worst :
YOU 'ARE THE PHARISIANS, YOU ARE THE HYPOCRITS, YOU ARE THE ONES JESUS CHASED OUT OF THE TEMPLE. HOW DARE YOU DARE YOU TAKE THE POINT OF AEOLIA0N TRYING TO MAKZ HIM FEEL LIKE A FOOL; gimme a break jusztpassin' , just makes me think about U you were just passin' by my^place in 2003.
Your truly dedicated Blue Lob
I can't help, i am a groupie, so i own robben too, and daved .........
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Dead Mint! Black RF ....who LOOKING ! 
ouch , i hope i was clear. and some others while being mad have still their brain making a right balance between income and outcome.
Ok i can deal with some people only loving the yellowjacket stuff but i love too to play my Cheap Epiphone Korea made in 2000 to death. I am not gonna make a nervous breakdown with a baker though i must admit i will love to have a Johnny A model, but hey i am still doing internet lottery on a daily basis (even trying to win a green card 
)
)
