Robben Ford Discussion

maxsmith · Member Joined: 21 Sep 2004 Posts: 18

(subtitled "How B.B. King Made It So Hard For The Rest Of Us")

Granted: Robben is an amazing guitarist, with his own distinctive tone, phrasing, improvisational vocabulary and compositional style - a rare combination that most of us probably won't ever achieve. I could listen to him play guitar all day. My recently acquired disk of "Tiger Walk" is getting a lot of repeated play. When I watch his "Playin' the Blues" instructional video, I marvel at how he gets so much variety in tone and dynamics and phrasing out of that same blues scale I've been butchering for years.

My opinion: Robben shouldn't sing (but then again, neither should dozens of other guitarists - particularly white blues guitarists - who feel compelled to, for a combination of reasons).

In my opinion, we have B.B. King to thank for legions of blues frontmen who are great guitarists but poor to middling singers (I include Eric Clapton, SRV, Johnny Winter, and all the numerous White Bluz Dudes I can think of - Walter Trout, Duke Robillard, Jimmy Thackery, Shepherd, Land, Duarte, etc. ad nauseum...) These are all guys who play guitar better than most of us ever will, but really, c'mon be honest, can't sing very well.

The question I ask myself is: "If this guy were not a guitar player, but just a singer fronting a band, would I want to listen to him?

And that's why I say B.B. made it so hard for everybody - the guy can sing just as well, just as distinctively, as he plays guitar, and in the eyes of the world, he is the icon, the image of the blues guitarist. And there's only a handful of other guys who can live up to that image.

Just as an example, everytime I have the occasion to hear that B.B. album with Clapton - "Ridin' with the King" - it never fails to amaze me how B.B. absolutely slays Clapton everytime he plays or sings a note - and Clapton, I would say, is one of the best white boys at that game - but B.B. simply buries him every time.

Anyway, all that being said - Can anyone make recommendations of recordings where I can enjoy Robben's guitar playing without his vocals - excluding Tiger Walk, which I already have - including recordings where Robben is not the leader?

Thanks,
Max

Aeolian · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:40 pm Post subject:

There's the current Jing Chi stuff, 3 albums worth although there are some vocal tracks involved. The older Yellowjackets. Tom Scott's Tomcat. The Inside Story has a couple of vocal tracks but is mostly instrumental.

Funny thing, a couple of years ago I met a lady who said she was going up to Santa Rosa the next day to hear her favorite artist, someone I'd probably never heard off, a guy called Robben Ford. Turns out while she appreciated the guitar playing, she really dug the singing. She was over the moon for Start it Up. He feelings were that Robben was very soulful and lyrical. This woman was musically literate and knew the difference between basic pentatonic playing and more sophisticated stuff. But Robben's vocals are what touched her soul.

Then there's the famous line attributed to Carlton where someone in the audience shouted out "don't sing" and Larry supposedly retorted, "hey I don't come to your job and tell you how to bag groceries".
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kirk95 · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:42 pm Post subject:

I think your comments are very subjective. I think EC is great singer! And BB doesn't slay EC vocally or playingwise on Riding With The King IMHO. And Doyle Bramhall smokes on that record as well. Johnny Winter is a great blues singer. I also enjoy Robben's singing particularly his latest works.

Not to mention to say that and I quote "(but then again, neither should dozens of other guitarists - particularly white blues guitarists - who feel compelled to, for a combination of reasons)"

That's a gross generalization … There’s a lot of great white singers and a lot of lousy black singers.. but so what….

I do agree that Robben is a great player and he should do more playing!

You should check out the latest Jing Chi CDs:

Jing Chi
Jing Chi Live
Jing Chi 3D

All mostly instrumental, Jimmy Haslip Bass, Vinnie on Drums!

You can buy them here:
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maxsmith · Member Joined: 21 Sep 2004 Posts: 18

[quote="kirk95"]
Not to mention to say that and I quote "(but then again, neither should dozens of other guitarists - particularly white blues guitarists - who feel compelled to, for a combination of reasons)"

That's a gross generalization … There’s a lot of great white singers and a lot of lousy black singers.. but so what….

I will agree that there are plenty of black blues guitarists who shouldn't sing either - but I will not agree that there are a lot of great white blues or soul singers.

I do agree that Robben is a great player and he should do more playing!

Amen to that!

You should check out the latest Jing Chi CDs:

Jing Chi
Jing Chi Live
Jing Chi 3D

All mostly instrumental, Jimmy Haslip Bass, Vinnie on Drums!

Thanks for the recommendations!

Max

maxsmith · Member Joined: 21 Sep 2004 Posts: 18

kirk95 · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:17 pm Post subject:

Michael McDonald?
Greg Allman?
Doyle Bramhall II?
SRV?
EC?
Johnny Lang?
Donald Fagen?
David Clayton-Thomas?
......................................and on and on

and of course the greatest of all time.......
John Belushi & Dan Aykroyd

I rest my case!

It's a gross generalization..............
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kirk95 · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject:

Aeolian · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:29 pm Post subject:

Donald Fagen? Smile

Okay, it's about the song, not the operatic qualities Wink

I'd toss in Tommy Castro. Can't quite call him a guitar hero but the boy can sing. Actually, come to think of it, there are a few folks who I consider better singers than guitar slingers. Tommy Castro, Tab Benoit, Johnny Lang. All white.

I played this weekend with Andy Just and he sold them on the blues too.
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BlueRunner · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:35 pm Post subject:

Uh oh ... here we go. With the perpetual "can blue men sing the blacks?" question. My personal take:

Singing the blues is all about telling stories that people care about. There have always been bluesmen and blueswomen whose voices were pretty crummy, but who were incredible performers and storytellers. (Now don't try to tell me that Hound Dog Taylor had a GOOD voice. But can you resist getting up and dancing and whooping and hollering when you hear one of his records?) That's why we care when we listen. There are also great opera singers whose technique and purity of tone runs circles around even the greatest blues singers, but when they're (usually a tenor) singing about some princess who's about to jump off a castle wall 'cause her daddy is forcing her to marry an ugly jerk no one really likes (usually a baritone), we don't really care. We know it's all fake. (I except from this descriiption the lyrics and music in Wagner's "Tristan and Isolda." Now THERE'S an opera that grabs you by the pants and shakes you until your innards come out, even when performed by off-key amateurs.)

We have been blessed to have lived in a time when we could hear live voices that were so steeped in the cradle of the blues that there was no mistaking their beauty. E.g., Muddy Waters, Son House, B.B. King, et al. Sadly, most are now gone. That they were black was primarily due to the culture that had fostered the blues. But not ALL of those great voices were black. E.g., Jimmie Rodgers. But instead of being stuck listening to old records, we have have a ton of NEW blues singers coming down the line to keep the fire lit.

I love good guitar playing, but even more I love hearing the stories sung in the blues, and it really doesn't matter what race or gender or nationality is doing the singing. Hey, Ana Popovic has every strike in the world going against her. She's not old. She's not male. She's not black. She's not American (or even British!). And listening to her sing the blues is still a lot of fun.

Re Robben's voice: I have a great CD of old material that includes cuts from when he was only 19 or 20 years old. It's a boy's voice. A garage boy-band boy's voice. But it's still fun. Fast forward to "Keep on Running." Robben has spent decades perfecting his ability to tell stories in his performances, and he's added the discipline of training with a classically-based vocal coach in L.A. The result: A voice that has matured tremendously. And, as a result, is ALSO fun to listen to. (Being married to Anne probably hasn't hurt, either. Even though cabaret and musical theatre is very different from the blues, the way she tells stories takes your breath away.)

You know, Frank Sinatra wasn't all that great as a singer. He had a limited range, a tone that bordered on nasal, and he was often slightly flat. But he also had tremendous phrasing and musicality. His sense of storytelling was without peer. He could have used as lyrics the warnings that appear on the tags on new mattresses, and it would still have been a hit for the ages.

For me, the blues isn't about how good the singer is. It's about how the singer tells the story. It's about the singer making me care about the story. E.g., "Hand in Hand With The Blues." "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood." "Start it Up." As far as I'm concerned, the more Robben sings, the better. In fact, the more EVERYONE sings, the better.

One last thing: A few months ago another guitar player invited me to join a group he's been jamming with. I showed up, joining three other guitar players, a keyboard player, a drummer and a bass player. Around the circle, each musician suggested a tune (rock, blues, jazz), maybe showed us some chords, and off we went. All instrumental. When it was my turn, I suggested "It Hurts Me Too," the old Sonny Boy Williamson tune probably best known from Junior Wells' performances. I showed everyone the chords used by Keb' Mo' on his version, started everyone up, and then (no microphone) sang it. Real loud. Afterwards everyone else just stared at me. Finally, the drummer said, "We've been getting together here for years, and that's the first time anyone's ever SUNG anything!" When I say the more EVERONE sings, the better, I mean it.
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UncleSalty · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:34 pm Post subject:

I think Robben's singing is an acquired taste. I think he'd be the first to admit that he's no BB King or Otis Rush, but then again, who is. He has a gently, soulful voice. He's not a powerful singer like BB. I'll give kudos to him, though, for always choosing material that fits his voice. He always sounds comfortable and relaxed, never forced. Personally, I'd miss the breadth of material if he didn't sing. It's always a pleasure to hear him backing up Jimmy Witherspoon, but the fact that it's Robben singing Ain't Got Nothin' But The Blues adds to the depth of the song for me.

Now, as for this soulful white boy thing, did Max ever hear of a guy called Elvis Presley? Rated by none other than Howlin' Wolf as a pretty fine singer. Steve Marriot had a very soulful voice. Dusty Springfield was up there with Aretha. As for younger guys, Doyle Bramhall II has a great, soulful baritone.

But, I think in some ways Max kind of missed the point. A lot of good blues singing is about attitude and being distinctive, more than technique or anything else. Good blues singing delivers the song. I don't think SRV had a great voice, and certainly would not cut it solely as a singer, but his delivery of Pride & Joy or Cold Shot is perfect. Who else but Clapton could sing Layla convincingly?

One thing though, Captain Kirk are you sure about Johnny Winter? Unlike Robben, I think he sometimes tries stuff he shouldn't - like Ray Charles! Each to their own, I guess.

kirk95 · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:04 pm Post subject:

Aeolian · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:50 pm Post subject:

bek · Member Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 22 Location: California

I have to say I thought SRV was tremendously underrated as a singer, maybe I'm in the minority. As far as pipes versus chops, Van Morrison can out-sing anyone I can think of, now that Ray is gone. Van is in a kind of coasting mode most of the time anymore but when he's hot, no one is hotter.

AndyR · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:40 am Post subject: Good discussion!

I agree/disagree!

I liken Robben's singing to E.C.'s; not so hot early on, but definitely improved over the years.

There's lots of good singers/pickers on the country side, Vince Gill and Glen Campbell come immediately to mind.

My vote for all-time best guitarist/worst singer: Steve Howe Mad

(yuck!)

Tommy Castro is really rocks!

Fagen's stuff is way too high for me to sing, B. Joel too (but both great writers)

I'm also very impressed with Robben's songwriting...so I hope he keeps on singin'.

Smile

Andy

JohnnyZ · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:09 am Post subject:

I've thought about Robben's voice many a time, and if there was anyone whose voice I could sound like, I'd choose Robben. To steal a well-known term in here, I feel that he sings with melodic intent, in my opinion.

What made me appreciate Robben's voice was seeing Monster Mike Welch live, for example. The kid can make his Strat burn like no other, but his vocals, quite frankly, sucked. I thought I'd hear a vast improvement in his new cd, having the benefit of studio recording (let's try it again), but I was disappointed.

BlueRunner's line about the furniture tag is priceless!

And, back to Robben- keep on singin'... Cool

~JohnnyZ~
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