Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:50 am Post subject:
kirk95 wrote:
Back to my original point... It's subjective!
Let's step back a minute....
Black guitarists are the only ones who can sing the blues.
White guitarists can't sing the blues.
So that's what you're saying...yes? You really want to make that statement?
So because Robben is a white guitarist he can't sing the blues? Is that the argument?
And Michael McDonald can't sing? Ok.......
Kirk,
I think Max's point was that very very few (of any color) folks can be a hero on both guitar and vocals. BB and the Alberts managed it in their day, but when you get into the Henderson/Beck/Ford/Vai level of modern playing, only Robben sings. The most balanced folks I can think of would be Joe Louis Walker and Coco Montoya. And I don't think either of them consider themselves part of the pervious group as guitarists. At the last SC bluesfest, I preferred Buddy Guy's singing to his guitar playing. But at some point in his career he did both equally well. I think SRV was a better singer than guitarist (but that's my opinion, and I do have that personal sticking point with the derivative Hendrixian nature of his playing)
But I think Max's argument has some merit in that it is really difficult to excell at both, and most folks do better at one than the other. And in some cases, far better in one than the other. It's interesting that Keep on Runnin is getting airplay. That would imply that Robben's singing has reached a level that John Q. Public (and the suits at Clear Channel) take him seriously as a singer as opposed to a guitarist. There's not that much guitar on there, and it's not a "guitar" song in the way that Santana got famous.
And Blob, for what it's worth, if you can call it singing, I do both together. If you do it long enough, the comps are on auto pilot. Although things like the riff in Misdirected blues take a bit of attention. The worse was back in my cover band days, the Whisperers 'Right Back (In Love Again)', singing "right back, right back" while playing that riff is an excersize in independence. Maybe that's why I can play 5 on the snare over 4 on the hi-hat nowdays (just don't ask me to channel any more Dennis with the other limbs ) _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
but when you get into the Henderson/Beck/Ford/Vai level of modern playing, only Robben sings.
Just FYI, Steve Vai actually does sing. His Fire Garden Cd is roughly half instrumental/half vocal tracks, and Steve does the singing on the latter. Not a bad job either, I think. Not a great voice, but there's passion there, and in the end I enjoy the tunes.
He also sings two Hendrix songs (Fire, Little Wing) on the recent Live at Astoria DVD. And again, I think he does a commendable job. I wish he'd sing more, actually.
Black guitarists are the only ones who can sing the blues.
White guitarists can't sing the blues.
So that's what you're saying...yes? You really want to make that statement?
So because Robben is a white guitarist he can't sing the blues? Is that the argument?
And Michael McDonald can't sing? Ok.......
hmmm... reading my posts again, I don't really see that I said that at all. There are white guitarists who can sing the blues (I mentioned SRV and Warren Haynes as two examples - and Gregg Allman is a white non-guitar player who can sing the blues, too). And there are great black blues guitarists who are not very good singers (the late Albert Collins comes to mind).
I am not saying Robben shouldn't sing because he's a white blues guitarist - he shouldn't sing because he doesn't sing very well. I was just making the point that for various reasons very good guitarists feel the need to sing in spite of the fact that their singing is not that good, especially many blues guitarists - and these days, more white guitarists than black seem to be pursuing that style of music.
It's not that white guys universally can't sing the blues well, it's just that most of them out there now don't sing the blues well - and a lot of guitar players who are very talented should consider hiring or collaborating with singers who sing up to the same level of their guitar playing.
I think Max's point was that very very few (of any color) folks can be a hero on both guitar and vocals... The most balanced folks I can think of would be Joe Louis Walker and Coco Montoya.
I think you get where I'm coming from...
I would probably add Robert Cray to your short list.
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1043 Location: Boulder, CO
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:48 am Post subject:
Sorry if I misunderstood....
Quote:
My opinion: Robben shouldn't sing (but then again, neither should dozens of other guitarists - particularly white blues guitarists - who feel compelled to, for a combination of reasons).
It was the "white blues guitarists" line that threw me.
Again I think it's totally subjective. One person's bad singing is another person's holly grail singing. And we're talking about the blues here too....lot's of room for interpretation!
There are people who will argue day and night that Neil Young and Bob Dylan are great singers! Who's to say?
Could Hendrix sing?
Hey what do I know, I think SRV is a killer guitar player...
But there is one thang that i know for sure......
there's a Fat Man....
in the bathtub....
With da bluesssss.....
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Hammer time
AndyR wrote:
max said:
And who's gonna tell me that McCartney can't cover Little Richard ??? !!!
Andy
McCartney was OK for white kids who had never heard Little Richard's originals, and the Beatles, Stones, Mayall, and Led Zep did everyone a great service by spreading the news about the great, relatively unknown blues and R&B greats that inspired them.
But anyone who listens to the original versions of the songs the Beatles (and many other British and American white Blues/R&B influenced pop bands) covered, can clearly hear the superiority of the originals - especially anything by Little Richard.
And I'll bet if you asked McCartney, he'd agree...
Again I think it's totally subjective. One person's bad singing is another person's holly grail singing. And we're talking about the blues here too....lot's of room for interpretation!
Hey, to get right down to it - it's all subjective - that's what keeps the whole thing exciting! It's art, not accounting...
By the way, who's Holly Grail? - does she play guitar?... ;-)
kirk95 wrote:
Could Hendrix sing?
Well, no, actually... (should I duck now?)
kirk95 wrote:
Hey at least we got things going around here for a change!!
Now, as for this soulful white boy thing, did Max ever hear of a guy called Elvis Presley? Rated by none other than Howlin' Wolf as a pretty fine singer.
Howlin' Wolf was a very generous and charitable man...
Elvis, Bill Haley, Carl Perkins, The Beatles, The Stones and countless others (even Pat Boone!) were a cultural necessity in the fifties and early sixties, for the simple reason that the United States was a segregated, largely rascist country at that time (Starting in 1984, I lived in Alabama for 3 years - there were still privately-owned publically-accessible swimming holes that prominently displayed signs reading "Whites Only"). Some of those guys were very talented, but I'll bet every single one of them would prefer their blues and R&B heroes to themselves and would rank their heroes above themselves. When I hear the Stones do a Slim Harpo song or Elvis do a Lowell Fulson song, I don't get the feeling that they are "stealing the black man's music" - I hear a pure worship of the music that moved them and a desire to spread that music.
I once read a book that said, in essence, that in the 1950s, a group of poor and lower-middle class white southern kids with a background in country and folk music, attempted to play the blues and R&B they listened to late at night on the radio (without letting their parents know about it). They failed. That failure was given a name - "Rock and Roll".
I am not saying Robben shouldn't sing because he's a white blues guitarist - he shouldn't sing because he doesn't sing very well.
well, that's ridiculous. HE DOES SING VERY WELL. Maybe he does not have a sore throat that everybody combines with a blues voice but technically he sings very good (he hits the right notes) and his timing is great. But you must like that young boy's voice, I do
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