you mean blues is not compatible with Yellow Jacket
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Bluelobster Senior Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 1172 Location: France
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:11 am Post subject: PERCEPTION
Hi all, i've got this from another BB and i find it quite intresting.
Here is some excerpts of one thread. I will not tell you where this is happening since my point is not to start a polemic. Everybody have the freedom of choice.
".....And while I'm at it...sticking my foot in my mouth...
I hold Carlton responsible for Smooth jazz and Ford for doing the same to Blues...
There...flame away......
.....Carlton I can understand and its a shame.
The Ford comment is a real puzzler. How do ya figure?....
....if i like smooth jazz what's wrong with that ?
what's the point of this kind of thread really...
....has nothing to do withI-IV-V but rather attitude. I supposse my biggest complaint is his vocals. Becuase it's so not Blues.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that I can understand because I don't think his voice is what anyone could call a blues voice. I'm sure he'd say the same thing himself. That said, I still disagree with your suggestion that RF has done something (bad) to Blues. Quite the opposite really. I think its caused a lot of guitar players to stretch out a little and learn some advanced harmony they might not have otherwise learned.
On the other hand, Larry's playing on his last several albums, IMHO, has been perfunctory (save No Substitutions). I'd get excited about something new from him but then I'd hear it and think, "It's about time for my nap, isn't it?" Disappointing because I know he's a phenomenal guitar player. I finally gave up.
I once heard from a friend apparently in the know that Kenny G is a really good legit jazz player. But he plays the smooth jazz crap because its sells and now he lives in a mansion.
......"
this go for pages. I like it , and you what do you think.
I know a lot of people thinking that Robben's voice doesn't fit the standard blues .
Me i don't think that , but may be in europe we are not afraid to show off our feminine side.
Is the some supreme (snob) authority which says what is blues and what isn't?
Ultimately, who cares?
I've finally bought a dvd player and am watching Larry's 1984 "Ohne Filter" concert. Fantastic. What a player, what feeling, what a touch. It is SO good....
...and that is exactly why jazz/blues nazi's don't like him.
The same consideration applies for Robben and his music.
Joined: 10 Jul 2004 Posts: 71 Location: northern California
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:03 am Post subject:
I would agree. I don't believe in "the box." I believe music is so free that there are no limitations to what we can play or how we choose to play it.
But in life you will always have critics no matter what you do. I choose to ignore all of them.
Personally, I appreciate the freedom music allows. We as musicians can do anything, play anything as an expression of what we feel inside.
To me, Robben Ford and Larry Carlton are 2 guitarists who have influenced my playing. They are very melodic. And in my mind, melody is missing in a lot of blues guitarists. It's just the same old licks. RF doesn't play the same old worn out blues licks that most blues guitarists play. And I like that. It's all about melody.
And how one sings has nothing to do with whether he or she is a ligitimate blues singer. Soul is all about expressing what's in your heart with the voice that God gave you, regardless of how you sing.
I'm sure that most people who hear my music absolutely hate it. To me, it's jazz, blues, fusion, classical, and whatever else. But it's an expression of what's in me. And I'm thankful for the opportunity to play what sounds good TO ME, even though others may cringe when they hear it.
So let the critics complain and point fingers. Who cares? Did they create the blues or jazz - or music, for that matter? So then, they're not qualified to judge. _________________ www.mrseamusic.com
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:33 am Post subject:
I put a similar comment on the other forum. At the end of the movie Crossroads the Willie Brown character says, "you have to take the music where you found it, and take it someplace else" or words to that effect. I've always believed in this. When I first heard Robben that's what I was reminded of. Someone had taken the music to a new place. The roots were there, the feeling was there, but the music was fresh. And inspiring. When I was a kid I heard Mike Bloomfield extend the Chicago blues into new directions. Thank you Robben for 20 years later inspiring me to take up the guitar again. By playing music I loved and adding something new that made musical sense to me. To paraphase the Bird character in Eastwood's tribute movie, "it fit". _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 150 Location: Ibaraki, Japan
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:24 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Robben Ford. A Real Bluesman?
I actually think that it doesn't really matter if Robben's a 'real' bluesman or not. If he were, he probably would not be given the freedom to explore all the different kinds of music he has. He's most certainly a real musician, and, more often than not - but definitely not always - I enjoy the music he makes. He has played various kinds of blues, Supernatural is essentially a pop/soul album and of course he's played a lot of jazz and fusion. Some of it is very good music, some of it not quite so, but it's always in the direction that Robben wants to take at that time, and his heart is most definitely in it. Isn't that why he got out of the Yellowjackets, just as they were becoming very successful, because he was no longer happy with the direction they were taking? I think he's very lucky to have such freedom. His is a very enviable musical career.
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:57 pm Post subject:
UncleSalty wrote:
Quote:
Robben Ford. A Real Bluesman?
Isn't that why he got out of the Yellowjackets, just as they were becoming very successful, because he was no longer happy with the direction they were taking?
Robben has said in several clinics that his has been gravitating towards less complex music in favor of more emotional connection. But the story I had heard with the Yellowjackets was that there were lable and contract issues that meant Robben was effectively a guest artist in his own band. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1043 Location: Boulder, CO
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:42 am Post subject:
I hate all the rules and categories..... Some where out there there is this music sheriff that decides what's blues and what's not....
I gravitate towards music that touches my soul, music that takes me to some another place.... It could be a great song, a singer, an improviser, any instrument, any genre... who cares....
Larry's playing and music touched my soul when I was learning to play in the first place. He changed my life. Robben is one of the few guitarists that touches my soul on multiple levels with his playing, writing and singing. I can listen over and over and never get tired of it. It's real, it's sincere, and it's coming from the heart!
Take a song like "The Way That You Treated Me."
Harmonically clever based on traditional blues with a jazz twist - extend dominate chords
Feel - funky almost fusion feel
Lyrically - classic blues theme - I've been mistreated
Vocal performance - compelling. believable and from the heart
Improvising - melodic jazz influenced blues phrasing over those interesting changes with extremely varied note attacks and dynamics
Is it the blues, jazz, fusion, ....... who cares!!! It's a piece of art and it's incredible on multiple levels! Keep them coming Robben!
Robben is one of the few guitarists that touches my soul on multiple levels with his playing, writing and singing. I can listen over and over and never get tired of it. It's real, it's sincere, and it's coming from the heart! ...
well said< Listening over and over and never get tired
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 534 Location: SF Bay area
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:22 am Post subject: I second that emotion.
Yes, Robben IS someone I listen to over and over and over, and I cannot imagine why anyone would waste the energy trying to label or classify any art. If you like it, play it and listen to it; if it feels good, do it some more. If you don't like it, find something you DO like.
I have been listening to the Ford man and family for about 32 years now, and I cannot think of any other artist whose music stays fresh and new for me over time, except the Beatles. The difference is that Robben continues to grow and hone his music, so there are always new experiences.
I'm going to stick my foot in my mouth here (I do it so well) and guess that much of the negative "stuff" is envy and jealousy. It seems that people love to hate a temperamental, S.O.B. artist...but someone who is kind, humble, generous, accessible to his fans, AND a brilliant musician almost annoys some people.
Robben makes what he plays look so damn easy, and you know it isn't. His deep relationship with music radiates from him every time he picks up a guitar. And he has a wonderful time doing what he does. What a role model: find your passion and make your living doing it. Ahhhhhh. It doesn't get much better than that.
If you don't like him, don't listen. I have never noticed shackles at his gigs; no one is required to be there. In fact, he and his crew seem to do an absolute minimum in the way of publicity, which means we have to be creative and resourceful to even find out about many of his shows.
How hard is it to admire someone who is great at what he does, continues to grow in his art, is just a downright gracious and lovely man? (For me, not very!) Whatsamatta wit some of dese people, anyway?
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:47 am Post subject:
This thing got started on another forum by a guy who is more of an 80's rocker. Very good player and someone who does respect LC and RF but just isn't into their styles. It was intended to stir things up on the other forum and the title self effacingly had something to do with putting his foot in his mouth. The basic theme was that Larry was playing smooth jazz and Robben was doing songs (as opposed to the straight blues, the original poster used the Witherspoon recording as an example of that). I think the assertion being that folks think of Robben as a blues artist and here he is writing songs. Folks think of Larry as a jazz-fusion artist and here he is recording these very polite smooth jazz albums. This guy also laments the focus on technicall ability that destroyed the virtue of having chops and playing rock. The backlash that lumped anyone with chops into the automatic classification that they could not play with feeling. So I think he's really on the same side, even if Robben is not his first choice in personal taste.
He did accompllish his goal of stirring up the other forum _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 10 Jul 2004 Posts: 71 Location: northern California
Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:02 am Post subject:
Elizabeth mentioned the Beatles. Good example. Rubber Soul is not going to be the same as Sgt. Pepper, which is going to be different from Abby Road. An artist grows and expands. And that's what keeps it interesting.
And it's because they're songwriters. If someone just wanted to play jazz or the blues or rock...or whatever...fine. But if they consider themselves songwriters, they'll explore new ideas and take new roads.
What's wrong with that?
And if they're creative musicians, they'll come up with new ideas and melodies that some people who are stuck in the rut of "what has been and should always be" will criticize. _________________ www.mrseamusic.com
Joined: 29 Jan 2004 Posts: 1504 Location: Methuen, MA
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:27 am Post subject:
jazzyblues wrote:
Elizabeth mentioned the Beatles. Good example. Rubber Soul is not going to be the same as Sgt. Pepper, which is going to be different from Abby Road. An artist grows and expands. And that's what keeps it interesting.
Can you imagine if every song the Beatles wrote sounded like I Wanna Hold Your Hand and She Loves You? Scarey, isn't it...
Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 908 Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: PERCEPTION
Bluelobster wrote:
Hi all, i've got this from another BB and i find it quite intresting.
Here is some excerpts of one thread. I will not tell you where this is happening since my point is not to start a polemic. Everybody have the freedom of choice.
".....And while I'm at it...sticking my foot in my mouth...
I hold Carlton responsible for Smooth jazz and Ford for doing the same to Blues...
There...flame away......
I will gladly add some kerosene to the fire !
There are Blues Purists and there are Blues lovers that are open-minded. I don't think the emergence of contemporary Blues music has had any negative effect on the popularity or the dignity of the traditional Blues genre.
When Robert Lockwood Jr., stepson of Robert Johnson, plays swing does it dilute the integrity of the blues
Hahaha, hell NO
Open your books, open your minds, it's the Blues _________________ Travelling by train of thought
Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 3 Location: Annapolis, USA
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:25 am Post subject:
marinblues wrote:
who defines what is "real" blues and "real" jazz?
Is the some supreme (snob) authority which says what is blues and what isn't?
Ultimately, who cares?
I agree. If you like something play it or listen to it.
If blues is all in the voice, I have to agree that Robbens voice is a little weak in the blues vein, but ... so what.
In the thread on the nameless BB where these excepts originally came from someone said it best when they said that Robben plays blues like a white jazz guitarist.
But so what.... I love his playing and phrasing! Sounds great to me!!
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where these excepts originally came from someone said it best when they said that Robben plays blues like a white jazz guitarist.
