Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:27 pm Post subject:
marinblues wrote:
Considering that perfect intonation on a guitar is impossible and when even a simple pressure difference on a string can offset the pitch of a tone, I wonder whether tuners of such a high level of precision really make sense for a guitar?
Excellent point, Marin. Glad you brought that up.
I've always been suprised by, and disappointed with, the number of professional techs who don't realize, or consider, this point.
Yes, exact tuning varies from player to player dependant upon their repertoire, their style, their instrument, and their execution. So many techs seem to think that generic tuning is sufficient for all musicians... and it most definitely is not! Proper tuning must be evaluated and then adjusted from artist to artist. I have even slightly detuned individual strings with some artists, purely because of the way they tend to chord them.
A primarily 'rhythym' oriented player can require a different approach to his tuning than that of a 'lead' player.
A 'shredder' player will usually need his strings tuned to the attack, because of the many notes being so quickly played together or because of the importance of "tapping" in their style, versus an artist who plays more sustained notes, in which case one would do better to tune to the note when it comes to rest after the peak generated by the attack. These are all things that can be visually displayed by a strobe tuner far more accurately than with a needle or LED tuner.
So, because of this, strobe tuners are especially useful in observing and making those minute compensations which make for a good sounding guitar and performance.
It's those nuances that make all the difference in the world, and I find that it usually takes a strobe tuner to properly see, recognize, and compensate for them.
An example:
When teching Stu Hamm's basses when I worked with Joe Satriani in the early 90's we went thru a brief period at the start of the "Flying In A Blue Dream" tour where Joe would complain that he & Stu were not tuned together on some songs. However, during the sound checks when Joe would bring this up, we would compare my strobe with Mike's (Joe's tech of many, many years) strobe, showing Joe that Mike & I calibrated the strobes together every day and that, technically, the basses and the guitars were perfectly in tune at all times.
But, though nobody but Joe could hear it, he would complain that something was wrong with the tuning and it was driving him nuts!
Finally, one day at soundcheck when Joe again severly complained, I made him & Stu tune acoustically till Joe agreed that they were properly in tune. Then Mike & I re-strobed the axes and found that Stu was now 3 cents flat! I promptly tuned all the basses flat by those 3 cents and we did our show.
Afterwards, as they exited the stage, I asked Joe how the tuning went. He told me everything was now perfect except for 2 songs which now sounded slightly off to him. I realized that those songs were the ones played on Stu's fretlesses.
It became clear that Stu, a VERY heavy handed player (I usually had to dress his frets at least once, sometimes twice, during each tour as he would tend to quickly & severely wear them), would tend to pull his strings slightly sharp on his fretted instruments... not enough that anyone but Joe could hear it, but just enough to extremely irritate him.
From that point on, for the duration of my almost 5 years with Satriani, I always tuned the fretted basses 3 cents flat and the fretless basses straight up A-440... and we never had a problem with Joe's ears again after that. _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:52 pm Post subject:
BTW... speaking of this subject...
Did anyone notice that during some 2004 awards (I think that's what this was) ceremony thing on TV the other night (I just happened to catch this as I channel surfed thru), during the performance by Modest Mouse (whose few recordings that I've heard, I've really liked) had at least one guitar that sounded horrendously out of tune?!?
Actually, I suspect a case of very poor intonation or possibly a need to compensate for the peculiarities of the special FX being used. _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:38 am Post subject:
Daved, have you ever "tempered" a guitar, in the way a piano is pulled sharp the higher up you go?
Your discussion of attack helped me understand why I've been doing this for years. Pulling the B and high E a couple cents sharp and intonating the guitar so the upper frets were slightly sharp. I always thought it was because my ear prefered a brighter, or more compelling tone up high, like a piano which sounds dull and flat if tuned exactly. But I think it may be also partially due to the way in which a string is initally sharp and then goes flat as it gets quieter. The longer the length of string vibrating, the larger "displacement" if you will occurs. It moves back and forth more as it vibrates. The inital attack (especially when leaning into it) goes more sharp, the wider the string vibrates. At the higher frets the effect is less prevalent, so those notes sound flat compared to the lower frets. Even when the intonation is set perfectly. Hence the reason I've never liked a guitar "perfectly" intonated, rather slightly sharp in the higher registers.
A possibility? _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:18 am Post subject:
The tempering, in the manner you speak of, is not one that I have run into the need for with any of the artists I have worked with... but, it is certainly very possible. And, if it better helps you to more clearly and distinctively "speak your mind", then it is totally acceptable and proper. The Peterson Stretch tuner has a variety of keyboard temperings available within it.
(I remember, when recording some of Santana's Supernatural album at the Power Plant in Sausalito, we went thru a panic as the 'house' tuner just could not temper the grand piano acceptably for Carlos and CT's ears. I called up another piano tuner in the San Francisco area [Whom I knew from when I worked with Benmont Tench during the month long series of Tom Petty "Filmore House Band" shows in 1997] who came in and re-tempered the piano in a way that totally satisfied & pleased the Santana folk.)
Everyone's ear is different and, dispite what some may think, there are no "You-will-be-shot" laws to music as art and all the myriad ways of producing, arranging, and coloring it. Everything is possible, and anything (Be it "good", "bad", or "boring") is right... when you, as either it's creator or it's beholder, respond & emote to it.
Those who own modern Peterson's are, I'm sure, very aware of the variety of available "sweetened" temperments (including that of the Buzzy Feiten system), along with the alternate tunings, that are programed into different models. Some Petersons even allow you to program your own modified tunings/temperments.
In my humble opinion, a strobe is a tool which, more than any other styled tuner, allows one to most accurately, consistently, and individually express themselves through their instrument's tuning. _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
And don't forget that most of us (hopefuly) have a pair of good ears.
Yes sure, but what do your ears tell you in a live situation after some time of full loudness? My ears don't show me a reliable result and if you listen to old live recordings the guitars are always out of tune, some more some less, so let's be glad there are electronical tuners which brand ever.....
Did anyone notice that during some 2004 awards (I think that's what this was) ceremony thing on TV the other night (I just happened to catch this as I channel surfed thru), during the performance by Modest Mouse (whose few recordings that I've heard, I've really liked) had at least one guitar that sounded horrendously out of tune?!?
Actually, I suspect a case of very poor intonation or possibly a need to compensate for the peculiarities of the special FX being used.
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