Joined: 29 Jan 2004 Posts: 1504 Location: Methuen, MA
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Sorry, but.........
GraemeD wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't want to buy a Robben Retrospective. I certainly don't want to have to buy it for one or two new tracks (Moonchild Blues or not !!).
Maybe I'm just a sucker but, I would buy a retrospective with one or two new tracks. The way I look at it is, how many dozens (probably hundreds) of cds, tapes, and vinyls have I bought over the years just for the one song I heard on the radio and really liked, and more often than not (usually 9 out of 10 times) disliked the rest. At least with a Robben Ford Retro, I'll get 2 new songs, and the rest I'm sure to like. The other songs may even be remastered to sound better than before! And, I like having a few highlighted songs from several different albums on one disc. So, I wouldn't consider this a waste of money at all!
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject: And another thing......
Also, a live set with Robben will always be different, regardless of the song. I have seen him two nights in succession and solo's/embelishments on identical songs have been vastly different.
How many times have people seen robben perform live and wished they could have captured the superb solo they had just enjoyed, or indeed just the magical ingteraction of the band??? Precisely!!
DD _________________ Music is the universal language; speak it with emotion, listen with a passion.
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: Re: And another thing......
diatonicdude wrote:
.......
How many times have people seen robben perform live and wished they could have captured the superb solo they had just enjoyed, or indeed just the magical ingteraction of the band??? Precisely!!
DD
Over an average hundred gigs from 84 to 2004 : 25 .
I have listened to tapes from an European Blue line Tour (don't remember the year) there were some nights in germany & switzerland : pure magic, almost from outta space. Then when you switch back to "regular" stuff you can feel the difference.
Then i would like new stuff for a new CD, or Robben playing his Hendrix tunes , yes something like Robben F. plays Jimi Hendrix Live , better than all this santaclaus mania.
I don't want a greatest hits , that is lame.
what sthe latest with the Robben 'Greatest Hits' CD ? been a few months, and it would be nice to see something!.
Is there any chance of other unreleased songs appearing alongside 'Moonchild' ? thatwould make a neat stopgap if so before the next full album and/or tour of the UK
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:33 am Post subject:
Sorry, I haven't heard anything further. Those kind of 'lable-projects' usually evolve pretty much outside my sphere-of-involvement. Half the time you fans find out about them before I do!
However, be assured that if I beat you to any confirmed news, I'll be sure to let you know in these forums. _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: robben live dvd.
hello all,
i've seen robben live just twice--both times at the rams head tavern in annapolis maryland, the first time in 98 or 99 was the better for me,he had jimmy earl on bass,& the whole band more or less came out like a full blown jazz band(brilliant) jimmy's brother david earl got up on stage & did a couple of numbers with robben,
this kind of small club setting would for me be an ideal dvd set.
the sound at the rams head that night was fantastic, the next time i saw him there in 2000, the sound wasn't quite as good(different house engineer i guess!!)---or maybe my having a different seat placement the second time round.
both were very entertaining evenings, i managed to get a group of workmates (whom were music fans,but had never heard of him)together for each occassion, & they were all won over for different reasons, performance, quality of playing,choice of notes --ect,ect
both tickets have pride of place in the back of my rf cd jewel cases.
My leanings for robbens recordings are the handful of blues --a la -"when i leave here" great combination of blues/jazz/rock,--i don't think i've heard a better combination of styles in any other recording,
the nearest thing to it(but in a different/more jazz way)--would be hank crawford with melvin sparks on the south central album(south central or conjunction mars tracks)
Now i live back in the uk,& eagerly await robbens tours over here.
best to all.
j/s/b
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: robben live dvd.
jazz/soul/blues wrote:
...the sound at the rams head that night was fantastic, the next time i saw him there in 2000, the sound wasn't quite as good(different house engineer i guess!!)---or maybe my having a different seat placement the second time round....
Until 2003, when he settled down & retired from touring, Francis had been Robben's Front-Of-House engineer for many years, so I would assume that most likely he was working the board at both the '98 show (I came onboard in early '99 and don't remember a Ram's Head gig w/ Jimmy's brother sitting in, but I do know that Francis had been working steadily with Robben for several years by the time I arrived) and the Y2K show.
So, I would have to lean more towards your "seat placement" theory... especially with my being VERY familiar with the layout and production headaches of the Ram's Head.
In my experience:
Rooms like the Ram's Head, the Casino Club in Rhode Island, and B.B. King's in NYC are where I most consistently hear the most critical of reviews and opinions about the FOH engineering... ranging from "Truly awsome!", to "Horrible, that soundman should have been fired!", to the almost laughable, "I wish I could have gotten MY hands on that soundboard. I'D have made it sound right!!!"... all expressed at the same shows!
'Armchair-engineers' often park themselves in front of, and as close as possible, to a particular instrument and then complain that all they could hear all night was that instrument. Or, they'll stand right up next to the stage, underneath the P. A. system, in front of the bass rig on the far right side, and then complain that they can't hear the acoustic quitar on the far left side. Or, they'll stand directly in front of one of the P.A. stacks on one side of the stage or the other and then complain that it's too loud or that all they can hear is whatever the sound person is putting into that stack to balance out what he may have more prominently in the stack on the other side of the stage. Or they'll even dull their senses and judgements with wayyyy too much alcohol and then complain because that's just what sonically-impaired drunks do.
So many fans fail to realize & understand that attending a live concert is nothing like sitting in front of the carefully controlled environments of their home entertainment unit, radio, or car stereo.
Personally, if I'm there to enjoy the music, I prefer to be as close to the MIDDLE of the venue, either on the floor right in front of, but not underneath, any balconies or in the middle of one of the front rows on the lowest balcony, for a balance & blend of all the musical elements being presented... much like placing yourself in the center of a nicely tuned 5.1 home entertainment setup. My favorite soloists always sound their very best to me when in context.
Add to that the ambient sound complexities of balconies, building materials, venue shape (including height!), stage placement, and P.A. specs and you come up with an awful lot of variables which can play against you.
Rooms like the ones I mentioned above are long and narrow with a stage against the middle of one of the longer walls, playing across the shorter width, often directly into glass/mirrors behind the bar. Besides those obvious negative elements, these conditions sometimes require that the FOH board be offset to the back of one side of the room rather than directly in front of the stage where the sound person can easily get a true evaluation of what is sonically coming off the stage. Conversely, IF the engineer IS directly in front of the stage, they are often so close, or stuck in a "bass trap" under a low balcony, that their perception of the sound can be radically different then what the listener at the far ends of the room are hearing.
Finally, add to the equation that every person in that room wants to hear a personally different "mix", depending upon what their function-in-attendence may be and what each of their individual musical tastes prefer to hear.
A professional and knowledgeable FOH sound person "Walks" the room during performances to be aware of what the different areas of the venue are sounding like as the show progresses thru different instrumentations and musical styles.
In most cases it is IMPOSSIBLE for a sound engineer to make all parts of a venue sound equal and perfect. They must often make tough choices... "Do I make ONE part of the room sound perfect at the sacrafice of the rest of the room, or do I compromise thruout the room in an effort to make a generally pleasant mix for all listeners?"
True, there ARE many "bad" sound designers out there, but even the most experienced and best of engineers are usually fighting impossible odds and just doing the best they can to make live concert music an equally enjoyable experience for all.
As a general rule, I would suggest that if you don't like the sound where you're at, try to move to a different area of the room. The sound person might be fighting a design or performance flaw you may not be aware of. You might also find where the FOH board is at and go place yourself somewhere near it to get a more reaslistic idea of what the soundman is hearing (Be aware though, that what he is actually hearing at his board, MAY not necessarily be the "Quality" mix he is trying to deliver to his primary audience).
Note what obsticles thruout the room he may be trying to overcome. Is he under an overhand or balcony? Is he placed above the main floor in a small, mostly enclosed, room? Is he off to one side or the other? Is he in a pit? Is the venue a concrete square? Are there sound obsorbing/reflecting elements (curtains, acoustic tiles, broken surfaces, beams, balconies, etc), and where they are placed, to be considered?
What about the P.A. system? Is it high in the air blasting over the heads of those close to the stage, exposing those listeners more directly to the stage/instrument volumes? Or is it down low, probably sitting on the stage wings, playing to the standing crowd and providing little to those in the higher balconies?
And also, is this the same band instrumentation/personnel/format as the last tour this audience attended? And, as the performance ensues, what does the entire audience have to hear equally... 3 delicate vocal harmonies against 2 acoustic guitars and a flute... or 1 shouting, growling, singer tying to overpower two drummers, a percussionist and bass player, along with a horseshoe of keyboards and 2 screaming guitars blasting from 3 tiered walls of Marshall 4-12's?
You will still see Robben, even with all the band's monitors and equipment volumes/tones/settings carefully adjusted to give as equally consistent a stage mix as possible from performance to performance, almost constantly moving around the stage thruout the show as he creates his own ambient mix dependant upon what he wants to hear, and how he wants to hear it, at any given time.
I would think it would behoove an observer of live music to do the same thing. Create your own mix!
Too much bass? Move to somewhere it is not as prevelant.
Want to better soak up those drum solo nuances? Get closer to the drum riser.
Want to air-guitar to that solo-from-hell?!? Park yourself right in front of the guitar amp and let the 'cannon' rip the drums right out of your ears.
If you want to observe the "big picture", as a symphony conductor might, move to the center of where all the elements converge.
Try as they might, the sound engineers cannot equally satisfy all listeners at all times. For the perfect concert, the listener is often going to have to bring a little something to his table himself.
Try it, enjoy it... make it YOUR art!
Sound mixing... it's a tough job. I've tried it. I didn't like it... too 'impossible' and mirage-like for me. I'm happy to stay in my world, bordered by the edge of the stage, where the rules, problems, and solutions are much more tangible, consistant, and surmountable. _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject:
Yea Daved! FOH is a thankless spot. After running a large music store's promotional system in my youth, I do a bit of freelance sound on the side and you never know what to expect. When I go to a show at a venue I've never been to before, the first thing I do is look around the room for the things Daved mentioned. Hard walls, ceiling, balconies and such. Then I think about how I would set up a system there and compare it to what is actually in the place. Are the mains flying? on the sides? where are the subs? And most importantly, where have they stuck the FOH board. Are they in a clear spot where they can hear? Or tucked under some overhead, in a corner or some acoustic annomaly. If the board is in some bad spot, I figure the guy won't be able to mix effectively. In a few cases, a "house" guy will have it worked out and be able to compensate but someone touring with the band will have trouble. Check out the stage set up. Is the band playing a resonable balance of gear so that the stage sound will be good? Or are they relying on monitors for certain things that would otherwise be lost on stage? i.e. is the guitar player playing a Deluxe that needs reinforcement so that you wouldn't be able to hear it from right in front of the stage? Or, as Daved mentioned, is there a stack of Marshalls that will overwhelm everything in a 100' radius? (BTW, Robbens rig is fairly loud, and getting in proximity to it in a moderate size venue will unbalance the mix) In an enviroment where reflections are controlled, like a movie theatre, the ideal spot is on center, 2/3rd's of the way back. This is where they put the mixing console in movie sound stages. The more live the room, the more you want to get closer to the source for a clearer sound. Or near some absorbtive surface. You want the inital sound to hit your ears before any reflections do. This is the premise behind the Live End/Dead End (LEDE) design of most recording studio control rooms. So when looking for a place to sit, I make a judgement call. I want to be as far enough back to get an integrated mix (and hear the mains when they are flying as in places Robben plays around here like Yoshi's or the Catalyst), but close enough to avoid the reflections being dominant. And usually along a line between the stage and the FOH board.
Then after seeing a few shows you find the sweet spot. For instance, Yoshi's is so dead that you need to be closer to the stage to get a "live" feel inspite if the overhead mains. Robben sets up on the left but usually turns toward the band. So the best seat is the last row of tables on the first level, just to the right of center (also off axis to his rig ). All the drummers in the house will be sitting a couple of tables further to the right so they can get the best view of the drummer . _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
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My favorite soloists always sound their very best to me when in context.
