When I was done, he told me that there was a reason for this. He explained that "Out of all the processing units in the world, even the more recent TC models, the 2290 is the ONLY one that processes it's info, not in the thousands, but in the millions giving it the truest and warmest of all the processors available out there." And that that was why, after allll these years, they still make the 2290 and it still outsells even their newer models.
Someone was explaining this to me on another board. People talk about sampling rates, and the all the buzz is "24/96" and the like. Apparently, the 2290 is waaay beyond that, using a completely different (and vastly superior) converter technology than just about any other processor on the planet.
Now if they could just make changing the battery easier...
So, that is why Robben sticks with the TC-2290. Again, as with the Dumble amps, the advantages may be subtle, maybe even beyond the senses of most players, BUT they are very important for artists like Robben who CAN hear the difference and so..... you get what you pay for.
Daved,
I think most of the people CAN hear the difference and that's why, amongst other reasons, they like listening to Robben Ford's tone.
I don't agree with this viewpoint where if someone doesn't want or have a piece of gear, it's simply because he is not "worthy" of it or cannot "hear the difference".
Indicently, I know several untalented rich daddy's sons who call themselves guitarists and they claim that they can "hear the difference" with the TC2290 and they are of course proud owners of it. I hear the difference between them using a DD3 and TC, but they still sound crap.
Some of us here are neither rich nor professional musicians and may find spending several thousands dollars on a delay unit or 10.000$ on an amp as "unsensible", even if our ears work fine.
On the other hand, what would be the point of Robben "hearing things", if his audience doesn't?
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:15 am Post subject:
Marin,
I never said, or even hinted, that ANYONE is "unworthy" and I absolutely DO stick by my premiss that many people can't hear the difference. Hey, I can't hear the difference!
Anyone who thinks that I am saying they are unworthy are reading their own trips into my statement.
As I have stated elsewhere, MY tastes in music can very easily clear a room in seconds. Doesn't mean I am any more inferior or superior than someone whose tastes may differ from mine.... and believe me, that is probably a LOT of people. It just means that I hear, and enjoy, things that others do not. If every body heard everything in the same way with the same intensity, satisfaction, and equal enjoyment, this would be a mighty dull world, don't you think?
As I said, I can't hear the difference, so I'll be damned if I will spend mega big bucks to buy a TC 2290 when a stomp box delay for 50 bucks will suit me just fine. It doesn't mean that I am an inferior person nor is anyone else in the same boat as I. It also means that if Robben used anything other than a TC2290, that I would necessarily enjoy him any less or anymore.
For Robben, who CAN hear the difference, it is important and for those who focus on the minute characteristics of his sound, it is important. For me, the quality of his delay has very, very, very little to do with why I enjoy his music/company and whether I can hear the difference in what brand/model delay he is using is not a make-or-break factor in my enjoyment of his music.
For others, it may be. More power to them and I wish them the best in their attempts to "be" Robben. They are no more "worthy" than me than I am "unworthy" compared to them.
Gear does not make the man.
Some of the finest music EVER recorded, to MY tastes, is either dreadfully out of tune or disgustingly ugly in tone and I would not enjoy it in any other way.
<< On the other hand, what would be the point of Robben "hearing things", if his audience doesn't? >>
The point would be that everything Robben hears is not necessarily what I hear, nor is it important to me when I enjoy his music, just as what I hear in other artists music that excites me, is often unlistenable to Robben's ears.... but I like it anyway.
Cheers! _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
please bear no grudge against me, but I am not entirely with you on this one.
One of your previous statements:
Quote:
So, that is why Robben sticks with the TC-2290. Again, as with the Dumble amps, the advantages may be subtle, maybe even beyond the senses of most players, BUT they are very important for artists like Robben who CAN hear the difference and so..... you get what you pay for.
imho had too many "elitist" implications. Especially the phrase "beyond the senses of most players" and "player like Robben who CAN hear the difference". I am sure that elitism was not your objective, but it could have been interpreted in that way.
I'll explain more precisely what I mean using an automotive analogy:
For professional reasons (no, I am not a chauffer...) I drive a BMW. I do not need to be Michael Schumacher (http://www.michael-schumacher.de) to understanding that I am driving a good car. It is simply that my backside is sufficiently spoilt as Michael's to appreciate a good, comfortable ride. I don't think that this is "beyond the senses" of most backsides nor that it CAN'T feel the difference between a BMW and a FIAT.
The same applies to my ears, Robben's ears, Dumbles and TC's.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:11 am Post subject: DDLs and live performance
OK - I'm going to be provocative: although I think it's likely most of us would be able to tell the difference between a bunch of ddls in our living room or the studio I seriously doubt any of us, without getting really lucky, would be able to tell the difference as a listener in a live performance situation. Bass pumping, maybe a B3 chugging, a trap drum kit with the snare snappin' and cymbals ringing and all, there's just no way.
Personally, I thought the amount of ddl I could hear at the last Sunday Yoshi's performance in Oakland this year was too much and getting in the way of Robben's attack - maybe that's what he wants to hear these days but I wasn't keen on it.
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:07 am Post subject:
As someone who has been into high end stereo (and I don't mean Bose ) for some time, there is an old saying about the debate between technical measurements and audiophiles perceptions. "If two amplifiers measure the same, but sound different, you are measuring the wrong thing". The subtleties in high end audio are often more about the nuances of live performance than static measurements.
Similarly, for a musician as dynamic and expressive as Robben, the differences in DDLs are probably more in how it responds to all the different tone colors he creates, and how it contributes to achieving the sound he hears in his head. Just playing one note, or strumming a chord and trying to decide 'was the reflection warmer or harsher' would be missing the point. Does the MUSIC sound better with or without it? With this one or that one. As Robben is fond of saying, "Let your ears be your guide". _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 26 Nov 2003 Posts: 916 Location: Fairhope, AL
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:08 pm Post subject: one more opinion
You know, I have to agree with Daved. Still, however much the 2290 is a key part of Robben's tone, it is still ROBBEN'S tone and not TC's or Dumble's or Baker's tone. The man makes some fine sounds. I want to to learn from him without trying to be him. I think that's an achievable goal, and I think I can do it without spending the kids' inheritance on gear! The best thing I have ever learned from Robben is to listen and not just to him, but to everyone.
Let's make some music!
Frank
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:11 pm Post subject: Battery soldered in place . . .
I had a POLAR heart rate monitor that had the same problem. When the battery ran down I had to go to a little office by the Burbank airport and have the battery replaced by middle-aged Finnish gentlemen with soldering irons and jeweler's loupes! What were they thinking?
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:42 pm Post subject:
Flavum wrote:
Daved wrote:
Flavum wrote:
Now if they could just make changing the battery easier...
LOL!!!
....I was dead serious!...."
And I, too, am dead serious... appreciatively. Believe me, I have been there, done that... multiple times thru the years. Battery replacement in many units, keyboards, etc., is a real project. I think this may actually be done deliberatly because of the possibilities of memory and/or programming damage if done carelessly.... but it sure is a pain in the butt when it needs to be done, isn't it? _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject:
marinblues wrote:
Daved,
please bear no grudge against me, but I am not entirely with you on this one.....
The same applies to my ears, Robben's ears, Dumbles and TC's.
Peace.
Of course I bear you no grudge. We all have our varied reasons for listening to music and therefore have our varied reasons for hearing the elements of songs in different ways. I will never be able to listen to a Robben tune and tell you which guitar, or amp, or effect, or settings he used and in what way any of those may be different from the way they were in the song before or after it. Or even, from the last time he recorded or performed the song. Frankly, I actually don't even care most times. Those things are just not the reasons I am listening to, judging, or emoting to music.
My tastes and preferences lean toward the song writing and performance more than disliking/enjoying a song because he used a TC rather than a Korg unit, or no delay at all, or whether he used a Marshal stack versus a Pignose.
If you can hear those differences, and that is what is important to you about a tune, then I am happy for you. If the kind of gear used is what decides quality music and generates emotion for you, then I sincerely wish you happy listening! Nothing at all elitist about that, my friend. I wish you much joy dissecting your music. And I will continue to enjoy Robben's songs and performances, for the songs and performances themselves, on whatever varied equipment he decides to play those same songs on.
Rock on, Dude! _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:31 pm Post subject:
Daved, I'm wondering if you may have misintrepted Marin here. I don't know if you've had the time, but when I listen to Marin's playing, I hear a person with an emotional connection to his instrument, not a clinical gearhead. The gear questions and such are part of using a technical background and understanding in pursuit of an artistic result. Much as you use your technical knowledge to assist Robben in his pursuit of sounds in his head.
I think the point that Marin was trying to make, and that you have suggested to other folks before, is that he is not trying to imitate Robben by copying gear, but use the inspiration as part of developing his own voice. Even though he recently, bought a Banzai, the recordings he made sounded very little like Robben imitations and more like his voice accentuated through the more agressive and dynamic Fireball pedal. If you and Robben have found that certain gear is appropriate for this genre (as opposed to a scooped metal sound for example), then that helps narrow the field for someone working at developing a voice in a similar genre. For instance, when I want a stomp box for backline situations, I am going to start the search with thing like the Banzai as compared to whatever Steve Vai uses (as much as I admire his playing, that's not the style of playing I'm into). I'm also going to look into things like the Centaur that John Wedemeyer and Coco Montoya use, since they are also playing within the genre that I am aspiring to.
I believe Marin was suggesting that simply buying a 2290 because Robben uses one is an excersize in fultility. If you can afford it, and it fits with your own voice (a distinct possibility since many members of this board are into a similar modern blues/jazz thing) then by all means, consider getting one. Not so that you can be Robben, but so you can be yourself.
Is this what they call violent agreement _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 21 Feb 2004 Posts: 243 Location: Rochester, MI
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:03 pm Post subject:
OK, since I asked the original question, I'd like to summarize some thoughts:
1) The 2290, is the best sounding delay out there.
2) Having one won't necessarily make you sound like Robben (I totally appreciate this concept--20 years ago, I saw Robben play through some pretty crappy lab amps at GIT and he still sounded fantastic).
3) All that being said, it's not about the gear. If it makes you happy to have a 2290, you should buy one. If not, don't worry about it. Just get back to making music with whatever gear you have.
The verdict: I think I may go out and buy one. I just need to find a way to sell a brand new D-Two and TC Stereo Chorus Flanger so my wife doesn't hit me over the head with a frying pan when I walk into the house with another new piece of high-end gear!
OK, since I asked the original question, I'd like to summarize some thoughts:
1) The 2290, is the best sounding delay out there.
2) Having one won't necessarily make you sound like Robben (I totally appreciate this concept--20 years ago, I saw Robben play through some pretty crappy lab amps at GIT and he still sounded fantastic).
3) All that being said, it's not about the gear. If it makes you happy to have a 2290, you should buy one. If not, don't worry about it. Just get back to making music with whatever gear you have.
The verdict: I think I may go out and buy one. I just need to find a way to sell a brand new D-Two and TC Stereo Chorus Flanger so my wife doesn't hit me over the head with a frying pan when I walk into the house with another new piece of high-end gear!
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) for some time, there is an old saying about the debate between technical measurements and audiophiles perceptions. "If two amplifiers measure the same, but sound different, you are measuring the wrong thing". The subtleties in high end audio are often more about the nuances of live performance than static measurements.
