Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1043 Location: Boulder, CO
Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:47 pm Post subject:
The fact is file mp3 trading is not totally free for the user. It takes time (time to find, DL, Burn), knowledge (which takes time to search out and acquire), there are huge quality issues (mp3, 128, 192, 256, FLAC, SHN, tagging), and legal risk. So there is some price point where the cost and convenience of buying the music legally is equal to or lower than all those other costs.
The music distribution world has changed from a world of oligopoly controlled scarcity to a world of friction free abundance - Abundance of distribution, abundance of product and abundance of artists. No longer can the 5 major labels control the number of artists, the amount of product, or the distribution channels.
Ted Turner use to have a great quote when discussing Industries in flux due to disruptive technologies. Remember he was the first guy to broadcast his local Atlanta TV signal over Satellite to a national cable audience, then invented CNN, TNT, etc......
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: to further the debate . . .
iamthewalrus wrote:
Some one correct me if these numbers are wrong but consensus was, as far as a percentage of total income for an artist, 60-75% is from touring, 10-15% from merchandise and 2-4% from CD sales. Looking at it from that point of view, the CD turns out to be a nice shiny, silvery invitation to your show.
Cheers,
Walrus, since you are close to the industry, maybe you can clarify something about those percentages. How does this apply to performers at different popularity/promotional levels?
For instance, I bought a CD off of Chris Cain this weekend putting $15 directly in his hand for a CD that probably cost him $3 to reproduce, plus whatever he paid Pat and Garth and his band to record it. I doubt he made more than a few hundred bucks from the gig. And he went through a box of CD's during the break, so if he sold 20-30 of them, it's about 50/50 for touring and CD sales.
On to someone like Robben. His last recording tied up a bunch of union musicians and a couple of full blown studios for several weeks. Regardless of how little promotion they put into it, the major lable machine still extracts it's overhead, plus the distribution and the stores markups. The artists return from the recordings becomes much smaller. As for the touring, I don't know about larger venues but I can rent Moe's Alley for $1500 a night. They get the bar and I get the door to recover my $1500. Robben packed the place with maybe 250 people for two shows. This only leaves a few thousand for the travel, the rest of the band, support staff and such. And that's it until the next gig. I've often wondered how these folks make a living. Someone mentioned on this board that Scott Henderson can't tour without lable support. So in a sense, the label is using the shows as a promotional cost and subtracting that from what the artist gets.
Then on to someone like Britany Spears (shudder). The label puts huge amounts of promotion (not to mention production) into these recordings thus reducing the "artists" take to almost nothing. But the tours are underwritten by folks like Pepsi as part of their marketing budget. So Spears makes the bucks from touring, which serves as an invitation for folks to buy the shiny disk, which pays for all the promotion the label put into her. This would seem to match up with the model you quote.
It looks like a shell game. The label pays for everything, but pays the artist to be out on the road promoting CD sales, instead of paying the artist for the CD and hoping they sell enough to cover their production costs.
Artist produced and marketed product has upset this system and it is faltering. It may be that this system only will work for manufactuered stars like Spears where the budgets and income can cover each other. Without sitting on the edge of the stage with a carton of CDs and your cashbox, the internet may be the only avenue left with any margin left for artists caught in the middle. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
This is like talking to my kids and trying to get them to do something they do not want to do. At some point you have to say "because I said so." Robben has a position on live taping and it should be respected. Sure there are lots of debatable points, and times and technologies change and I am sure when the time is right maybe he will implement some of these good ideas. Until then, "because I said so" is good enough for me.
Hey, nobody's trading or taping here. This is a debate covering some of the "debatable points" you mention. Robben's wishes will certainly be respected by all and obeyed by most of us. But, I presume you don't think that Robben also wishes to quell all debate on the subject, do you? Debate is a good thing. It allows us to learn from one another. I am sure that Robben is thoughtful enough to appreciate that.
* * *
Ted Turner use to have a great quote when discussing Industries in flux due to disruptive technologies. Remember he was the first guy to broadcast his local Atlanta TV signal over Satellite to a national cable audience, then invented CNN, TNT, etc......
Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:14 pm Post subject: higher and deeper yet . . .
A - I can't speak to the Chris Cain example but I can speak to a couple excel touring expense spreadsheets I developed in the course of the class. Given that you can figure out what it costs on a daily basis to have a band on the road, there is a venue size, ticket price and number of days on the road that determine at what point a tour is profitable or not (obviously). I don't claim to be close to the industry but for 14 weeks I had industry leaders in my face telling me what was what from their point of view. Although most major labels provide some touring support for their up and coming artists, gross receipts from touring and merch belong to the band - along with the expenses! The only thing the label makes money on is the CDs and maybe publishing. This is one reason they are so in trouble - they've developed a model where artists are like Kleenex - they'll sign 100 bands, make a priority of maybe 6 and hope 2 or 3 sell platinum. If a band doesn't then it's "back to Burger King" for the band; it's purely a numbers game to the labels and, for the most part, there is no tolerance for anything but an artist capable of selling millions of records because, yes, the only thing that makes labels money is selling CDs. They need "home runs" and aren't set-up to be happy with lots of base hits, some doubles and triples and the occasional home run; the home runs pay for all their inefficiency and waste. Some labels are now trying to get bands to sign contracts that give the label a piece of the touring.
Joined: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 401 Location: College Station, TX
Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:57 am Post subject:
Hi Justpasin... The operative word on my post is the final one, "me" - in that I am resigned to accept what the artist' wishes are and act accordingly. Does not mean anyone else has to accept this position. Not trying to squelch debate at all, just that at times this particular thread (and the ones that have come before) tends to focus on what is possible, what other people do, rather than where Robben and his people are coming from on all this. He is an intelligent and thoughtful person with good management and support, and I am sure they have considered these possibilities and have chosen to follow a path they are comfortable with. And maybe it is not about making money (for those raising the financial aspects of the technological innovations), but about making music.
Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:45 am Post subject: Music before money
Telefunk - I appreciate where you're coming from, but I believe you've just made my point for me - that it's not about making money but making music.
At its heart, music is meant to be shared. And while anyone can create some level of music (if only for their own enjoyment), those who have real talent and exposure are stuck picking up the slack, as it were, for the rest of us. I'm a musician myself, though nowhere near as gifted as Robben, and love playing with other musicians - with or without an audience, just to have fun and share what I can with them. And if there's an audience involved, so much the better. Even a good open blues jam will do.
My point is this: making music for oneself is great, and can bring one a lot of happiness, but to be truly satisfying, it must, in my opinion (and speaking from some experience), be shared with others. There's nothing like the buzz you get from playing with a good group of musicians in front of a crowd who really enjoys the music.
Which brings me back to the beginning of the message: the music comes before the money. Of course, those who do this for a living have to be compensated - for their benefit as well as ours (otherwise, they wouldn't keep doing it) - but are labels really going to take care of them, particularly the more obscure artists like Robben? To a point, perhaps. But it's really incumbent on the fans to make sure that the musicians we love can afford to continue doing what they do. And the best way to do that is to see them live (as often as possible), buy their official product, and, yes, share them with others.
I've seen Robben perform many times, and have yet to witness a poor performance. Sure, he may have off nights (in his opinion), but even those must be better than a lot of mainstream music out there.
Live is really the way to catch any good artist, and live recordings, though they can't capture all the buzz of being there, are a fantastic way of sharing the experience with those who can't be there, and reminding those of us that were why we continue to seek out and support them.
Last edited by Devin on Mon May 17, 2004 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 762 Location: Southern California
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:15 am Post subject: Live shows
Yesterday a friend of mine showed me his newest CD. Its a live performance of Pearl Jam from a show he attended in Irvine on June 2, 2003. Apparently, Pearl Jam records every live show they do directly from the board and then sells it directly to fans through their website for around $11. Anybody can go to their site and order any live show they want. They'll receive a CD(s) of the entire concert in a very plain package with no frills. No liner notes, no extras, just the music in a cardboard package.
Can you imagine how cool something like this would be for fans of Robben?! And with the minimalist packaging approach, it can't be too hard to stamp out the CD's, mail them, and make a good amount of money. Or, with a little effort, any live concerts could be available for direct download which would eliminate even those costs.
If this were available for even some of Robben's live performances, I wouldn't be able to find my credit card fast enough.
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:36 am Post subject:
By selling physical copyrighted media, they at least slow down the rampant bootlegging and make it like any other CD release. Anyone who rips the CD and posts or trades it is being as blatant as if they were doing the same thing with a formal studio release. I get from Daved's messages that once it's in the internet realm, it looks like free to too many people. Some folks are always going to burn copies of copyrighted disks for their friends, and a few charltans are going to try to repackage things and sell them for profit. But when this comes out like a formal release (albiet of quicker production) then there's a stronger implication is that it isn't free. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Live shows
jconstant wrote:
Yesterday a friend of mine showed me his newest CD. Its a live performance of Pearl Jam from a show he attended in Irvine on June 2, 2003. Apparently, Pearl Jam records every live show they do directly from the board and then sells it directly to fans through their website for around $11. Anybody can go to their site and order any live show they want. They'll receive a CD(s) of the entire concert in a very plain package with no frills. No liner notes, no extras, just the music in a cardboard package.
Can you imagine how cool something like this would be for fans of Robben?! And with the minimalist packaging approach, it can't be too hard to stamp out the CD's, mail them, and make a good amount of money. Or, with a little effort, any live concerts could be available for direct download which would eliminate even those costs.
If this were available for even some of Robben's live performances, I wouldn't be able to find my credit card fast enough.
jc
You got that right! I'll just ask that my Visa number be kept on file for future purchases - just send the muse when it's released and bill my card.
Hi Justpasin... The operative word on my post is the final one, "me" - in that I am resigned to accept what the artist' wishes are and act accordingly. Does not mean anyone else has to accept this position. Not trying to squelch debate at all, just that at times this particular thread (and the ones that have come before) tends to focus on what is possible, what other people do, rather than where Robben and his people are coming from on all this. He is an intelligent and thoughtful person with good management and support, and I am sure they have considered these possibilities and have chosen to follow a path they are comfortable with. And maybe it is not about making money (for those raising the financial aspects of the technological innovations), but about making music.
Ted Turner? Didn't he play for Wishbone Ash, too?
Some of us hope to persuade him that his just rewards and financial security will be found on another path.
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