Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: Other tones possible with a Fuchs/Two Rock, etc?
Hi, all,
I’m sure this has been debated endlessly before, but I’m new, so bear with me. First, let me say that I really like the tones you guys are posting with your Fuchs and Two Rocks (and Skrydstrups, Woody!). They all sound very nice! However, I was listening to my old personal bootlegs of Robben from the 80’s at clubs in LA and there’s a bit less of the mids to my ear than I hear on your posts, with a little rounder tone at all stages of gain. He especially would get a great tone (clean or overdriven) with that sunburst strat he was playing alot then, along with really great sustain on solos. I don’t know if I can legally get you a reference clip, but I suspect some of you long time members have an idea of what I’m talking about.
My question is, can the Fuchs/Two Rock/Skrydstrup animals do this as well? Do any of you have a clip with fewer mids (NOT scooped, I’m not asking for death metal). I just think I hear a few more highs and lows on Robben’s solo tones, and not just from my live tapes, but from Inside Story, Talk to Your Daughter, Kazu Matsui, etc. It may just be Robben’s technique, as well. I remember the first time I saw him in Portland, OR in 1979 with the original Yellowjackets - he was playing through a black 1x12 Mesa Mark I. I had one at the time and wondered why his sounded so much better than mine. (Har, Har..... Ouch.)
Since I’m about to dump the VHT, and can’t try anything unique without buying it, (one of the draw backs of living in Spokane, WA) I thought I would ask this able crowd of tonemeisters, first! I guess I’m really looking at the Fuchs... it’s expensive, but the TwoRock price range is definitely beyond my reach, right now, without selling off a six-stringed child or two.
Joined: 18 Jul 2003 Posts: 122 Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject:
Hi Dana,
Keep in mind that the clips you hear from us lowely home hacks are usually recorded with something like one SM57 mic on the speaker. In a recording studio they frequently use high dollar condensor mics in conjunction with a close mic. This can really alter the frequency balance! In addition, the speaker matters. I have been micing the THD Vintage drivers. They have more mids and less highs than an EVM or Celestion 1265 for example.
It would be quite easy to record a clip with less mids to answer your question.
One other thing, I almost never post EQ. In the studio, they are probably altering the EQ to fit the guitar into the mix better.
Still I think you are hearing the mic in the clips. A condensor would be much brighter and less middy IMO. Also, the latest voicing of the Fuchs has WAY more highend articulation.
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Other tones possible with a Fuchs/Two Rock, etc?
yebdox wrote:
Hi, all,
I’m sure this has been debated endlessly before, but I’m new, so bear with me. First, let me say that I really like the tones you guys are posting with your Fuchs and Two Rocks (and Skrydstrups, Woody!). They all sound very nice! However, I was listening to my old personal bootlegs of Robben from the 80’s at clubs in LA and there’s a bit less of the mids to my ear than I hear on your posts, with a little rounder tone at all stages of gain. He especially would get a great tone (clean or overdriven) with that sunburst strat he was playing alot then, along with really great sustain on solos. I don’t know if I can legally get you a reference clip, but I suspect some of you long time members have an idea of what I’m talking about.
My question is, can the Fuchs/Two Rock/Skrydstrup animals do this as well? Do any of you have a clip with fewer mids (NOT scooped, I’m not asking for death metal). I just think I hear a few more highs and lows on Robben’s solo tones, and not just from my live tapes, but from Inside Story, Talk to Your Daughter, Kazu Matsui, etc. It may just be Robben’s technique, as well. I remember the first time I saw him in Portland, OR in 1979 with the original Yellowjackets - he was playing through a black 1x12 Mesa Mark I. I had one at the time and wondered why his sounded so much better than mine. (Har, Har..... Ouch.)
Since I’m about to dump the VHT, and can’t try anything unique without buying it, (one of the draw backs of living in Spokane, WA) I thought I would ask this able crowd of tonemeisters, first! I guess I’m really looking at the Fuchs... it’s expensive, but the TwoRock price range is definitely beyond my reach, right now, without selling off a six-stringed child or two.
Thanks,
Dana W
Hi Dana,
It's a good question actually. One I considered before I bought the Skrydstrup.
I have to start by saying that although I love Robben and Larry's tone, I’m desperate to avoid cloning it. I just can't see the point. However the fact that you’re comparing tones to Robben’s means I’m probably failing (bit worrying)
The amps in question have a wonderful grainy overdrive and beautiful compressed 'pluck' that I just could not find with other production amps I've owned or tried. They also appeared to respond so well to picking dynamics. That’s what drew me to them not the goal of achieving Robben’s sound. The Mid voicing - well I guess all amps are coloured or voiced a certain way. But of course the mids can be reduced as per taste.
As far as recorded tone - well set your amp and just play it noting the tone. Move around the room and see how it changes dependent on where you’re standing (Especially bass and treble). Now stick a 57 or something similar in front of it and take several recordings of it with the mike at varying positions, you’ll very quickly discover how radically different the recorded tone can sound from what you’re hearing naturally. It’s quite tricky capturing that ‘warmth’. As Scott quite rightly says so many factors affect the tonality live and recorded. Add in all the mike, room, speaker, cab, guitar and player variables and you’ll be scratching your head for hours.
The only thing I can advise is go to the Fuch, Two Rock and Skrydstrup sites and listen to as many clips as possible, and then follow all the links to all the players using them and then listen to their clips. It's what I did - and I think it will give you an overall ‘feel’ for what the amps are capable of as well as the kind of styles people are using them for. If you like the texture of the tone then they may well be the amps for you..........
It feels like I’m ranting and I’m sure I’m going to get shot down in flames, by the fingers v amp crowd, but I guess what I’m trying to say is:
I would avoid walking down a path of trying to capture Robben’s or anyone else’s tone, you’re unlikely to achieve it and even if you did what have you really achieved?
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:50 am Post subject:
You know, I've never gotten this coping Robben's tone bit. While Robben's playing is unmistakable, and he gets great tone for everything he does, there isn't one specific tone that I hear. Every album is different, every song is different. In fact I posted a question to Daved awhile back about the various levels of overdrive on different songs since Robben has said in clinics that he doesn't fool with the controls on the guitar, and live he seems to only use the volume pedal for swells, leaving it wide open the rest of the time. And he uses different guitars constantly. I think the tone most people are referring to is the 54 goldtop on the bridge pick up with the boost and overdrive engaged (instead of the countless variations of slightly overdriven Tele, 345, Elite, Baker, Epi Rivera or who knows what else). Even the full tilt OD tones sound different on different songs. I know from my own experience learning to record, that I can never get the same tone twice, even with the same gear and settings. A half an inch of mike movement changes everything. After I move and get my new studio built, I might bolt some mike stands to the floor just to get some consistency to tone _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 289 Location: Baltimore, Md
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:05 am Post subject: A Tone Story...(a bit long)
Woody wrote:
Quote:
I have to start by saying that although I love Robben and Larry's tone, I’m desperate to avoid cloning it. I just can't see the point.
A few years ago I met a youngster who plays guitar at a local open mike, and became friendly with him and his family, and was giving him impromptu lessons, letting him play with my little combo, etc.
The kid had a great ear, could mimic anything I showed him almost instantly, was a real gearhead, and he even turned me on to "Talk to Your Daughter" which was where my real Robben addition started!
But he refused to practice, learn any scales, chord voicings, or anything of the sort...he was content to wank mindlessly on pent licks, while the "blues nazis" blew smoke up his butt.
I continued to try to motiviate him in different ways. One day he was helping with yard work, and when we had finished, we went into my music room.
"Hey, listen to this!" I said, then turned on my keyboard, into which I had sequenced some tunes.
Then I picked up my Mex-Strat and played along to "Stormy" and "Blue Bossa" throwing in lots of octaves, chord melody, cool scales and arps, all thorugh my little 15W practice amp.
Well, his eyes got real big, he was mesmerised.
"You wanna play some?" I asked.
"Sure!"
So I hand him my axe, and start "All Blues."
He starts playing his usual tired pent licks, but he has this GREAT tone, which he always has.
Now, he didn't touch any controls on the amp or guitar, he just took the ax from me and started playing with the same settings I used.
The guitar sounded LIKE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT INSTRUMENT!!!
The Mex-Strat came to life and absolutely sang as the kid played, and I realized that guys that get this kind of sound get it done WITH THEIR HANDS!!!
So I'm not surprised that Robben pays little attention to his settings...that what he has Daved for.
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: Re: A Tone Story...(a bit long)
AndyR wrote:
Robben has "magic hands" and that's what counts!
Andy
Yep, watch him live and notice how little he plays with anything. About the only thing he does is switch between a couple guitars, amp channels, delay patches and use the pickup and coil tap switches, and 80% of the time he's on the bridge pick up with any humbuckers tapped. He almost never touches the knobs on the guitar and the only time he steps on the volume pedal is to do swells. If you see him turn something on the amp, it's a minor adjustment that stays that way the rest of the night. And he plays all these different songs and gets all these different wonderful tones for them without twisting anything.
Larry has magic hands too. I've been listening to the live No Substitutions CD and you can hear Lukather stomping all over his Bradshaw box by the instant changes in tone. But Larry morphs every which way and you know the only things he's touching are the volume pedal, pickup switch and strings.
I got the opportunity to study Robben's hands up close at a clinic while playing something together with him. I think it's the way he connects his hands to his ears cause, I couldn't see him doing anything particularly special in the way of fingering or plucking. But darned if I could figure out how he got it to sound like that! _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 150 Location: Ibaraki, Japan
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: A Tone Story...(a bit long)
Aeolian wrote:
Larry has magic hands too. I've been listening to the live No Substitutions CD and you can hear Lukather stomping all over his Bradshaw box by the instant changes in tone. But Larry morphs every which way and you know the only things he's touching are the volume pedal, pickup switch and strings.
I'm sure you didn't really mean anything by it, but I think Luke's 'stomping' is more a result of him being a different generation of player and going for different things than any defect with his hands. Larry and Robben are of that generation heavily influenced by Wes & BB, players who rarely messed with the electrics on their axes. Luke is obviously enamoured of Hendrix and then later Van Halen. Effects are an essential part of what he does. I agree that he's often guilty of overprocessing his tone and that Toto probably should have been drowned at birth, but the stompers have their place, too. Oh and Aeolian, I love No Substitutions, too. I wish Larry would play like that more often!
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:52 pm Post subject:
I had never paid much attention to Luke before buying this album. I love the way he builds his solos. So many folks launch right off with both barrels blasting. This was really refreshing.
I missed the whole 80's thing. The guitar was in the closet and I was listening to straight ahead jazz and classical music. I'm as much a techo-wennie as the next guy. I'm a silicon valley engineer by day and I do have a pedal board I use for R&B gigs with a few contraptions hooked together. But every time I've played though a rack system or other highly processed rig, I've been frustrated by not being able to "play" though it. No matter what you do, the notes tend to sound the same. You have to change patches to get a different tone. Whereas with the "old school" rigs, you can alter the timbre at any point in the phrase that you want to. To my way of thinking, this brings up more expressiveness. Maybe it's all that time listening to Pablo records (the jazz lable not the pop group) and all the horn players like Bird or Bud Shank or Clark Terry... who work the tone as part of the whole passage. This is one of the great things about Robben. Like those old jazz masters, every aspect of his playing is expressive, the notes he choses, when in the phrase he plays those notes, and the individual tone he applies to each note in the phrase. It's just more musical that way to me.
On that album you can hear that Luke has great control of dynamics, particularly in the Room 335 intro. How much timbral control he has, I couldn't hazzard a guess. I probably have a bit of a prejudice as I've tended to consider lots of processing to be a sort of crutch in lieu of learning tone production. But then again, my tone production is only average and I never learned enough theory to play all those cool lines, or practiced speed enough to run them out at that rate either. Which is why I'm a silicon valley engineer instead of LA session guy. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
