Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject:
Okay, I'll stick my toe in the water.
I found the CD in stock at Street Light Records in Santa Cruz, so it's out there.
It's been in the car changer since the weekend and I've listened to it a few times.
TF, I know you've commited the sacrilege of saying that you weren't taken by the original Jing Chi releases. I differ a bit in that I found parts of the studio album kind of noodley but the live CD has been lodged in my car changer right next to Last Nite, for several months.
Now let me commit the sacrilege of saying that 3D hasn't grabbed me yet. There are bits of Robben playing those wonderful "melodic yet out" lines. But overall my impression of the CD is one of Vinne playing subdivided beats over rock vamps by Robben. Intellectually interesting, and an amazing display of being able to play compound time signatures, but not very emotionally involving.
Yes, Robben plays great as usual (as does everyone else), but what do you folks really think? _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 29 Jan 2004 Posts: 1504 Location: Methuen, MA
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:02 pm Post subject:
I just got my copy yesterday, and still have the last track to listen to. I agree with Aeolian in that it hasn't grabbed me either (yet). What surprises me is how "spacey" it seems to be (ie. Jing Chi meets Pink Floyd).
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject: 3D reviews?
I've been listening to 3D for a few days. It always amazes me that I have a chance to hear and enjoy what these fantastic players choose to write and record with each other, as a group. Lots of instrumental adventure and experimentation, which is exactly why I bought it in the first place. I connected with Colonel Panic, Tangled Up, and Mezzanine Blues right away. I'm curious as to how Nobody's Fault happened with Mr. Cray, how much spontaneity was involved?
I dig Vinnie's wide-open ambient drum sound on this, it rocks, but the mix hits me as cymbal-heavy at times. I will be listening to this cd for a very long time, there is much to chew, savor, and digest. Thanks to the band for putting such a satisfying meal on my table.
I've had this CD for about a week and have just listened for the 3rd time. While not crazy about it at first it's growing on me. I really love the drumming here. I like track 5 a lot, " Time is a Magazine ", sounds a lot like king Crimson to me. I agree with the previous poster and like the spacey effects as well. Good CD !
I got a copy last saturday at a media play, My first impression was that the drums are WAY to heavy in the mix, but other than that I really like it. It reminds me more of an Al DiMeola or early Frank Gambale album than any of Robben's Blues stuff, but it inspired me to buy 2 more Jing Chi discs. I also noticed that they RE-Released that first Yellowjacket's album with some new songs that were previously un-released- I didn't buy it but if anyone has it please let me know how it is- _________________ Resident Gear Hound!
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 943 Location: Terra Firma, Ether Sea
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:35 am Post subject:
bottom line wrote:
I'm curious as to how Nobody's Fault happened with Mr. Cray, how much spontaneity was involved?
Robert showed up in the mid afternoon, and was in the studio for about 2 hours. He went over the arrangement of the song with the Jing Chi guys and then they all recorded the song "live in the studio", vocals and all, playing while recording the song twice if I remember correctly.
FYI, the entire album was recorded in 3 days. _________________ B C-ing U!
( }:-Daved
"This boy's diseased with rhythm!" -Bing Crosby (Road To Rio, '49)
I’ve been listening to 3D continuously since I received it on 6/29. This album is excellent! I like every song. While it does have a 60,s vibe to it (which I like) this is the only relevant music that I've purchased this year. The drums sound great, mixed just right. I like the drums up this much in the mix. I loved the first Jing Chi partially because of the drum mix. I liked the live album, but not as much as the first studio album. The guitar playing and tone are top notch, Robben at his best in my opinion. If you compare this to any other current releases, they don't even come close. This type of music played at this level is simply not available anywhere else. Oh, did I mention I like this album.
Daved, you mention that Robben used the Gold Top LP alot on this, did he use any other guitars and on what songs?
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 1043 Location: Boulder, CO
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:25 am Post subject:
Thank you Robben, Vinnie and especially Jimmy!
I loved it from the first listen on! Just once in my life I would like the pleasure and honor of playing with a rhythm section of that magnitude ...wow. Vinnie kills me, Jimmy is right there and Robben gets to play on top of that - what a setting!
It's definitely more fusion rock than the normal Robben stuff and if you are not into that I can see why it may be hard to love out of the box. However, I love that kind of music and those 3 together just nail it! Please keep listening to it! It's freakin amazing! And trust me Robben is playing with enormous feeling through out!
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:18 pm Post subject:
Been running this in the car over the weekend and am starting to get used to the form of the songs. I don't think that I was implying that Robben's playing was unemotional, only that Vinnie's cymbal washing and compound meter made it harder to feel the overall groove and get into the music on an overall emotional level. When Vinnie settles down, you can hear he and Jimmy lock in and the song drives. I think that a couple of albums and tours have done Robben a lot of good in reconnecting with this kind of music. At the first Jing Chi show in Santa Cruz and the first couple of nights at Yoshi's he looked distinctly uncomfortable finding the groove. Vinnie toned it down a bit for later in the week when the live album was recorded and by Sunday Robben seemed much more in his element. On this record, he seems completely at ease with what is happening under him and is playing his heart out.
I've used the term "songs" a couple of times and I think that is a large part of why this album doesn't grab me. I've been listening to Blue Moon lately and while not as harmonically adventurous, the songwriting is excellent. Comfortable but inovative. I find the "songs" on 3D kind of disjointed. As if several disparate parts were jammed together, and without a recognizable form. Songs like "Going Nowhere" sound like songs to me. You could play this for someone and even if they didn't recognize the killer drumming and inventive soloing, they would still "get it" at some level as a song. Tiger Walk had this too (in spite of the overwhelming snare drum), the songs were harmonically interesting, but they stood on their own as songs.
There was a time when I thought that music had to be as complicated as ELP or RTF, or had to be full of Stevie Wonder/Donald Fagen amazing chord transitions. Recently I started working with a rock singer/songwriter and find his stuff too cluttered with cleverness. The occasional twist can keep things interesting, but when they come at you non-stop, it can be as fatiguing as a Corby Yates guitar solo. When I go back and listen, I find that Stevie only put one or two in each song, and then put them in a form where when they came back around, you were expecting them and they made the song, instead of twisting your head around. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
I'm wondering how you guys that actually do play this type of music well (fusion, rock/fusion etc), and are schooled, compare this album to the classic albums and bands in that genre?
Not a loaded question, or implying anything negative, but simply looking to broaden this discussion somewhat! _________________ - Mayer
Joined: 01 Jan 2004 Posts: 18 Location: Hanson, MA
Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:31 am Post subject: 3D and fusion
I liked Meyer's question and think that 3D is not in the vein of "classic" fusion. I was jamming along with some live Stanley Clarke from the 70's yesterday and it showed the difference in the "then and now" quite clearly. Classic fusion to me took many of rock's structure, amped them up, turned them instrumental and let it rip. You had song structures in place and played through that. The other thing was the pyrotechnics of that time. These guys took off at a moment's notice, sometime to the determent of the song itself. That said, I loved most of this stuff if not for anything else but musical self-indulgence.
3D on the other hand is what fusion is today, a melting pot without the need for the pyro stuff. You don't have any bands or players out there like early Mahavishnu, RTF, or the Dixie Dregs. Today, that just isn't going to fly. We are down to only the musicians who can comprehend stuff like that. A band I love checking out here on the east coast is the Mahavishnu Project. All very schooled musicians playing all the stuff from the first four MaHa LP's. They just put out an amazing live double disc, but have also said this is about it as they can't get gigs and can't sell enough CD's. Read: nobody cares
3D is an interesting CD and really shows the path these guys have taken. Though you have structure to the tunes, there is a lot of open space for whatever they feel led to. As a guitarist, I am always hanging back waiting for RF to take off, but I am a bit unsure of the melodic aspects of the tunes. Can't say I am walking around the house humming these tunes yet like I was with Hong Kong Incident or Going Nowhere. I think this one is a CD that will grown on you as you discover its layers. I loved the clips I heard online to the point I was bursting for this disc, but when it finally arrived in the mail (no local stores carried it) I realized it wasn't so simple. It keeps growing with every listen and those are the discs I usually like the most in the end. Finally, I think RF playing this stuff is important to many of us who discovered RF through the earlier days of the Yellowjackets, Miles, etc. and then kept rolling with him through his redefinition of the blues which hooked us for good. I understand and agree with many of the directions of his solos discs, but this stuff is the other side of the RF that makes it whole!
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 886 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject:
Chick Corea once described the RTF stuff as "classical music for modern electric instrumentation" Even then "fusion" took on many meanings. From the meanerings of Bitches Brew, to the slightly more structured Weather Report to the totally written out things like RTF and the Dregs. I think it originally got coined as jazz musicians took up electric instruments and blended what jazzers thought of as "rock" into things. Then folks started crossing back and forth all over the place. Tommy Bolin on Spectrum, the Breckers on Dreams, and so on.
I still hear plenty of pyrotechnics in things like CAB and Vital Information with MacAlpine and Gambale so that is still one facet of "fusion". Also these bands have a lot of involved drumming going on with Donati and Smith. Jing Chi goes there with Vinnie, but Robben adds a different flair in being more melodic and less chops oriented. All this is influenced by the groove movement as in Scofields A Go Go and Uberjam. As befits the term "fusion" more things are being "fused" into the music. I for one, keep hoping that the jam band/groove movement will spawn the return of innovative improvisation. When Phil Lesh hires Robben, and Sco picks up kids from Santa Cruz, the music only benefits. _________________ There are no such things as wrong notes, there's only the look on your face.
My Stuff: www.stevekirbymusic.com
Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 289 Location: Baltimore, Md
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:49 am Post subject: Great discussion...
...about the fusion era!
What a great time to be a kid listening to music, the mid-60s thru mid-70s.
Mom was a big-band era singer, so I got to listen to a lot of Ella, Sarah, Doris Day, Theresa Brewer, et. al, and Mom loved Arite Shaw, too...Artie was killer! And we got a new record every month from Columbia Record Club...some great Charlie Byrd bossa stuff, not to mention some great Broadway musicals, various classical selections, and some C&W stuff like Marty Robbins, Johnny Horton, Charlie Pride, all of which I loved as a kid!
I think I was 8 or so when Dad bought me "Meet the Beatles" and I rode out the entire Beatle phenomenon, and learned guitar from the then-slimmer Beatles song book.
Me and my buddies would work all Saturday at the local car wash for $1.00/hour, then promptly go to the record store and spend all our money!
When I heard Steely Dan it was a revelation...I heard "Light as a Feather" and was blown away by Chick, Joe Farrell, and the teenaged-Stanley Clark...then I heard Coltrane and said, "Screw this rock stuff!" Then I heard Joe Pass do stuff I didn't think was humanly possible on guitar.
I could go on and on (but wont ) about Herbie Hancock, Sea Level, Full Moon, all the stuff Aeolian mention.
And no discussion of fusion is complete without mentioning Frank Zappa!
Sorry for getting OT...I'll go get 3D!
Looking back, lots of us grew up during a very fertile time of popular, and not so popular music.
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) about Herbie Hancock, Sea Level, Full Moon, all the stuff Aeolian mention.
