Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:28 pm Post subject: Podcast: Chick and self-criticism
Hi Scott,
Well another podcast, another question or 2...
Firstly, I think you referenced my comment about your thoughts on your older work and it feeling more like the kinds of things Holdsworth says and I would like to try and make my meaning clearer.
I of course expect you to grow and therefore be critical of what you did in the past, but haven't you noticed that you routinely lambaste the drummer, the keyboard player, your sound, your solos almost any time they are mentioned.
There is a difference between being critical of your older recordings (as any good forward thinking musician should be) and giving the impression that you can't stand almost anything associated with them and feel compelled to say that almost any time someone brings them up (hence the Holdsworth reference, although for example even he is more positive about the other people on the recordings). As an aside, I think you can also imagine it does tend to make your fans feel a bit odd to hear that it was almost all crap.
The other comment I had was regarding Chick. I know the stories about him as a person/bandleader and can understand some of the criticisms of the Elektric Band but do you really think all his music from the Elektric Band onward is just terrible jazz pop as you seem to be saying?
It's even stranger to me when I hear you make blanket statements of approval about Beyonce's music with no exceptions. I must admit I have a hard time imagining you listening to an entire album from Beyonce and it sounds like when some jazz/fusion guys say they like Meshuggah...yeah, for about 5 minutes at a time
Have you also heard Chick's more straight ahead playing which he has done even from the 80s onward or the Elektric Band 2 with Mike Miller and Gary Novak?
Here's a tune from it and I'd be curious to know what you think:
Yes, it's true - I can't stand to hear just about anything from my old records. As you said, "I of course expect you to grow and therefore be critical of what you did in the past." So you're getting what you expect.
As far as the other musicians, I don't say anything in public which I haven't told them face to face. They've grown just like I have, and they'd laugh at the things I say, especially about dated sounds and arrangements, because they feel exactly the same way I do.
Maybe you take all this like we're sitting around with an attitude like "woe is me" because we made all this music that we don't have the same respect for as we did 25 years ago. That couldn't be further from the truth. We're happy and grateful about our legacy as one of the more important fusion bands of that era, and anything we don't like anymore is just food for comedy.
I didn't like those Chick tunes at all, but once everyone starts playing, it's burning because they're all great musicians. I'll stick to my opinion that his composing since the days of the first Elektric Band can't compare to his older recordings. These tunes from a compositional standpoint aren't "jazz pop" like when I was in the band, but they aren't good either. Chick has a seriously deep harmonic concept, and it's been missing from his electric music for a long, long time. I imagine that's on purpose, and I can only suspect it has something to do with Scientology and wanting to be more commercial.
You're right, I'm more a fan of Beyonce's singing, and I rarely like a whole album - but I do like many of her tunes. I think they're written and arranged by extremely talented people.
To a certain degree I can understand some peoples fascination with the electric band when these records were released, but it's quite difficult to understand why they haven't been forgotten years ago as the time stamp seems to be quite big. He did brilliant trio recordings like "Now He sings.." and classics with RTF that actually had an impact on jazz history, but people are still raving about "Got a match"..?!?
My impression was also that Corea was not a really a synth player like Zawinul or Lyle Mays, who learnt these instruments in debth. He was brilliant on piano and Rhodes, but to me his synth playing sounded like a pianist running through a bunch of presets. What was your impression of this?
Joined: 18 May 2016 Posts: 55 Location: Herndon, VA
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:24 am Post subject:
I'll try and keep this as short as possible. If you know Scott you know that he is, like most all musicians, self critical of his own work especially the older it is. I recently asked Scott about the Players project and was he happy about his playing and tone and he made the comment "ask 1987 Scott what he thought because today I'm not happy about any of it" and it made me laugh because 1987 Scott might have been running around thinking it was the shit and he loved everything about it. I remember the first time I talked to Allan Holdsworth about Velvet Darkness and although he talked favorably about the other musicians on the project he hated everything about his playing and the recording itself. I knew before I asked him about it that he didn't want it to see the light of day so we had a nice long talk about it where he told me all about his reasons and everything about the project. That was my first experience about a musician being self critical that I fully understood, even if I liked the music. Because musicians are always trying to learn and be better at all facets of their career (playing, tone, composition, etc.) they are like painters in that their last work is OK or stick figures but the next will be better. Most musicians look back at music they have made/been a part of making and even if it's considered a "classic" by the critics and fans, they will usually have something they didn't like about it. Nothing is perfect and as a part of it they know what isn't good even if we fans love it. Being satisfied means you have given up learning and getting better. I'm surprised Scott didn't say "Dude, you really think I'm happy with something I played 30 years ago?" and I would have understood where he was coming from. Keep being yourself Scott and I'm just happy that you will answer questions from the fans and be honest!
As for Chick, I really loved those tunes LIVE as Scott mentioned (saw them many times with Scott in the band and right after he left) because the great musicians Chick had in those bands could really burn and make them sound great. Great musicians can make OK tunes sound good. As for the studio versions, can't remember the last time I played one of his Elektric Band albums. Chick is a great pianist but I feel that since the RTF days his electric compositions have become bland and formulated. I have not listened to the newest Elektric Band album so I don't know if he has written anything different for that band context or not but it would surprise me if he has.
Chick doesn't know anything about synths, which is quite easy to hear. Yes, everything sounds like a factory program. What's surprising, is that during my time in the band, he hired a synth programmer - who apparently had no knowledge of synths either. Bad tone is bad tone, no matter what instrument you play, and I find it just as difficult to listen to those synth sounds as I do listening to screech metal solos.
That being said, Chick's Rhodes tone on albums like Light As Feather was awesome!! Also, his touch on a grand piano is as good as anyone's - those are his instruments.
I have to agree with what you guys say about his composing - I honestly think he's as bad-ass as he ever was, and probably has killer music sitting around which was never released. In fact, I know he has, because I learned two AMAZING tunes to play in the Elektric Band, and I was thinking that Chick had decided to make a turnaround for the group, but unfortunately he decided that we weren't going to play them. They were obviously better compositions than we were playing - more harmony, less commercial, etc, so not only was I pissed off that my hard work learning the songs was for nothing, but that Chick had decided to continue playing tunes far below his real composing ability.
Yes, it's true - I can't stand to hear just about anything from my old records. As you said, "I of course expect you to grow and therefore be critical of what you did in the past." So you're getting what you expect.
As far as the other musicians, I don't say anything in public which I haven't told them face to face. They've grown just like I have, and they'd laugh at the things I say, especially about dated sounds and arrangements, because they feel exactly the same way I do.
Maybe you take all this like we're sitting around with an attitude like "woe is me" because we made all this music that we don't have the same respect for as we did 25 years ago. That couldn't be further from the truth. We're happy and grateful about our legacy as one of the more important fusion bands of that era, and anything we don't like anymore is just food for comedy.
I didn't like those Chick tunes at all, but once everyone starts playing, it's burning because they're all great musicians. I'll stick to my opinion that his composing since the days of the first Elektric Band can't compare to his older recordings. These tunes from a compositional standpoint aren't "jazz pop" like when I was in the band, but they aren't good either. Chick has a seriously deep harmonic concept, and it's been missing from his electric music for a long, long time. I imagine that's on purpose, and I can only suspect it has something to do with Scientology and wanting to be more commercial.
You're right, I'm more a fan of Beyonce's singing, and I rarely like a whole album - but I do like many of her tunes. I think they're written and arranged by extremely talented people.
Thanks for the reply Scott.
I am surprised to hear you say that you think these two tunes are substantially different from most of Chick's material for Return to Forever.
Personal preferences aside, they seem to fit right into that world and the second tune in particular is at least as intricate as most of what he wrote back then (and a lot of Return to Forever was built around vamps for that matter).
Again, I completely understand it not being your cup of tea but having transcribed parts from both this and the older material, they seem pretty consistent to me.
I have to admit, it seems like you go easier on people who make 'simpler' music compared to how you critique Corea and some other people who are closer in some ways to what you do. I wonder if you are listening to the former in a 'fun' way whereas you are more actively scrutinizing the latter.
I don't think you have a woe is me attitude; I studied with you years ago and have done a couple of in depth interviews with you so I think I have a decent sense of where you are coming from and how it's part of what makes you the musician you are. I'm not expecting you to love everything you did 30 years ago but sometimes it sounds like you actively dislike most of it and minimize the band which is a bit different.
Did you ever have a conversation with Zawinul or someone else you admire where you were baffled by his take on music you appreciated? For example, maybe you saw the Jaco movie where it's reported that Joe told Jaco that Three Views of Secret sounded like some high school big band bullshit?
I find it hard to believe someone with good ears could say such a thing.
Firstly, I was never an RTF fan. I like Hymn Of The 7th Galaxy - after that I stopped listening. Check out pre-RTF albums like My Spanish Heart - I think you'll hear what I'm talking about. I think you know my taste in music enough to know that I think a lot of great music is simple, but that's different from corny. Look up corny in the dictionary and you might find those tunes you sent me.
I overheard Chick talking with his manager when I was in the band - about me. Chick made a statement like "Scott's gotta loosen up on stage and move around more - he takes everything so seriously - this isn't even serious music." I didn't think it was either, and still don't.
Yes, Joe said that to Jaco, not about Three Views of a Secret, but about the whole record. I played Tribal Tech Nomad for Joe and he hated it. I also played him some Gentle Giant and Donald Fagan - he hated that too. Willis played Wayne a few tunes from our first album Spears - he just took off the headphones and rolled his eyes. It honestly doesn't bother me - I figure composers on that level are probably going to hate everything. Joe wasn't a Mozart fan either, but Wayne told me how much he loved the music in Close Encounters and that John Williams did a great job. Joe told me that John Williams stole the main melody in Close Encounters from him.
Firstly, I was never an RTF fan. I like Hymn Of The 7th Galaxy - after that I stopped listening. Check out pre-RTF albums like My Spanish Heart - I think you'll hear what I'm talking about. I think you know my taste in music enough to know that I think a lot of great music is simple, but that's different from corny. Look up corny in the dictionary and you might find those tunes you sent me.
I overheard Chick talking with his manager when I was in the band - about me. Chick made a statement like "Scott's gotta loosen up on stage and move around more - he takes everything so seriously - this isn't even serious music." I didn't think it was either, and still don't.
Yes, Joe said that to Jaco, not about Three Views of a Secret, but about the whole record. I played Tribal Tech Nomad for Joe and he hated it. I also played him some Gentle Giant and Donald Fagan - he hated that too. Willis played Wayne a few tunes from our first album Spears - he just took off the headphones and rolled his eyes. It honestly doesn't bother me - I figure composers on that level are probably going to hate everything. Joe wasn't a Mozart fan either, but Wayne told me how much he loved the music in Close Encounters and that John Williams did a great job. Joe told me that John Williams stole the main melody in Close Encounters from him.
Thanks again for the reply. I know my questions are a little more probing than most here and if you think this isn't the right forum for them, I'll gladly hold off.
It definitely doesn't bother me if a given musician doesn't like another musician's work but in some cases I find it interesting to try to understand why, especially if I like both musicians in the first place. It might also illuminate something about music more generally in addition to telling me about someone's personal taste.
The fact that you hear those Corea tunes as so corny still somewhat surprises me even though I thought I knew you and your music pretty well but if you had time or were present, I'd definitely try to nail down exactly why you think those are corny but not Gentle Giant for example (whom I also like) because I think it conveys a lot of information.
It stems from deep respect for you that I ask these things as opposed to just filing it away in the "different strokes" category and never thinking about it again.
When you hear a musician like Zawinul say that Jaco wrote bullshit music for a high school big band or that he hated Fagen etc do you mainly relate that to Joe being a more advanced musician? Does it strike you as reasonable?
I know Joe and Wayne are really your main guys so want to be respectful but I find this curious. Again, it doesn't bother me that Zawinul says this (I found a lot of Joe's later music boring myself apart from the great musicians on it) but I wonder if it isn't more evidence of an ornery character.
For what it's worth I like Nomad and Spears a lot more than anything Wayne and Joe did from that period onward.
Just to interject into an interesting conversation:
I think that what we think is "great" and what we "like" or "love" can be different. For instance, in my opinion Charlie Parker is way "greater" as an artist then Bruce Hornsby but for reasons that I can't explain, I love listening to Bruce Hornsby's music and Charlie Parker's music doesn't move me.
So when we talk about these things we need to differentiate between what we like and what is great. For instance, Wayne Shorter as an artist is probably somewhat objectively superior to Freddie Hubbard but when I listen to Freddie Hubbard I like it more for no rational reason.
No problem at all, this is a place to discuss honestly about how we feel about music. That being said, it's not a place for people to send YouTube clips of musicians I don't know and ask me to comment - I'm not a music critic.
A more accurate term for the first tune you sent me would be grandiose, or pompous. But corny still applies. Sounds like music for a 70's cop show.
I'm a big fan of Word Of Mouth - I think it's a beautiful record, but it is highly arranged, and I think that's the part Joe hated about it. He wasn't a fan of "arrangements" and found them to be un-organic. You're right though, Joe could be an ornery guy - maybe he liked Nomad and Word Of Mouth and just wanted to keep his sidemen in their place. Besides, if he didn't like Three Views of a Secret, he wouldn't have played it on Night Passage. Check out that version compared to Word Of Mouth - it's played much more loosely. I heard that Jaco wasn't happy about the liberties Wayne took with the melody, but that's what I love the most about the WP version, and Joe would probably agree.
Gentle Giant have their dated and corny moments as well, but a lot the writing is pretty amazing and timeless in my opinion, like great classical music. Towards the end of the band, they were pressured by their label to dumb down their music, and they did a couple records that suck - but this was a battle between them and their label. Maybe Chick Corea was getting the same kind of pressure from his label too. The first Elektric Band album was released on GRP, a shamelessly commercial label who put out mostly bullshit jazz for people who don't like jazz. On the other hand, I know enough about Scientology to know that it's a cult based largely on the idea that money brings happiness, so I'd be surprised if that didn't have more to do with the commercialization of Chick Corea.
Joined: 25 May 2004 Posts: 24 Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:17 am Post subject:
Sorry, but whenever there is a discussion about the electric Chick, I feel compelled to chime in... (sorry Scott, I know you're so done with this)
Random spewing ahead:
At age 14 I started with Romantic Warrior, so that tells you where I'm coming from. I played the grooves out of that one.
He's one of my favorite composers - when he actually decides to compose a tune, which hasn't happened in years in the electric realm.
Yes, his synth playing and tones do stink most of the time. The same wide vibrato, often with synth sounds which sound like something from a bad cartoon. But when he sticks to his signature MiniMoog voice and Rhodes, things are pretty cool.
When the first Elektric Band album came out, I had mixed feelings. I was overjoyed that he had included a guitarist. I really thought he'd never have a guitarist in his band again. The flip side is that most of the tunes were fusak. I did dig King Cockroach and Silver Temple - the tunes Scott played on (although all this was tarnished when I heard how Cockroach was recorded LOL!!! ) In my opinion, though overplayed, Got a Match? is a standard.
Aside from maybe two tunes, Light Years was the worst electric record ever recorded by him.
My favorite Elektric Band record is Inside Out. Great compositions and playing there. A Bartok influence.
EBII has the best throw-down funk Chick has been involved in - Ished. Check out the groove during the sax solo.
His last electric record with Vigil (I call it Virgil) was proof that there were no more electric compositions.
I'm sorry Scott's tenure with him was so shitty. I think he and Bill Connors were the best and most organic.
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