Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:30 am Post subject: Criteria for Great Tone
Hey Scott,
I got a helluva price on a Suhr reactive load that I'm planning to use with an Apollo and my CAA OD-100+ (the one you used in Minneapolis a couple years ago)...
I'm definitely looking forward to it, but I also picked up an Atomic Amplifire and I've been really impressed with the tones coming out of that. It essentially has the same processor as the Axe FX.
I've seen you talk about how the Kemper, Axe FX, etc. - modelers - don't even come close to the real thing. But many players - Guthrie, Pete Thorn, Tom Quayle, Martin Miller, Dweezil Zappa - swear the difference is negligible. Now I'll say that when I saw Dweezil live, there was some meat, if you will, that was missing some kind of throaty mids that didn't sit super awesomely in the mix.
From what I've heard of these guys, their tone can be pretty damn good, which makes me wonder - what's your criteria for great tone? And yes, I did download one of your MMMC videos on it . Can it be that these guys and the myriad others who listen to them are all deluded when it comes to tone? Seems a bit of a stretch?
I think on guitar wank, there needs to be a "fool Scott" where people A/B clips and you say whether they are a modeler or the real deal and where they model your amp and you play through both and you can see if you can tell
THE INTERNET DEMANDS IT! LET THE BATTLE....BEGINNNN!!!!
No reason for that battle - I'm sure in many cases I wouldn't be able to pick out the amp modeler - many tones made with real amps are totally shitty, so how would anyone be able to know? I'm not saying that the players you mention don't get good tone with their amp modelers. What I'm saying is that if you A/B them playing the same exact thing with a modeler and a great amp, the amp will sound better. I'm also saying that I (and many other guitarists) have a personal voice on the instrument and the amp plays a huge role in that voice. I've tried all the popular amp modelers and there's no way in hell I'd use one instead of my amp - they simply don't sound as good, and not as much like me. Would I use one in a Top 40 band? Sure, who cares - but to use on a recording? No fucking way.
I'm just wondering if you pulled all the nerds at kemper and had them model your tone and then put an A/B on you to try to guess which was which....is it possible you might not be able to tell?
Anyway, we'll see. I'm looking forward to trying to duplicate my tones on the modeler versus the reactive load . We'll see if there's any success...
I was hired by True Tone Music to evaluate the Kemper - a good friend of mine whose ears I absolutely trust came over, and for 6 hours we tried to get one useful tone from that thing with no luck. We also tried sampling my rig and no luck there either. Instead of wasting your time with amp modelers, I suggest you use your amp with the Suhr load box and IR's. That's gonna sound way more real since you'd use your pedals and amp. The new IR's by Celestion are unbelievably great.
I recorded a lot with a Kemper.
Then I bought a reactive load and I use impulse response speaker cabs with real amps now.
1. The difference between the kemper and the real thing has a lot to do with how the front end reacts to pedals. The kemper doesn't react like a real tube amp at the input.
2. The real amp sounds and feels like it breaths. This is subjective but it is real in my opinion. There is a feeling that my guitar is more connected to the amp with the real amp. Subtle changes in technique make a bigger difference with the real thing.
3. The most important thing for me is that now I am developing my live sound when I record and vice versa. The more I learn about tone when recording the better my live tone gets because I am using the same gear.
I agree, about all amp modelers, not just the Kemper. They're clearly inferior to real amps, and that's a fact. That being said, many people get horrible tone with real amps, and that's why those same people can play through amp modelers and there's no difference. Guitarists who are considered "tone experts" use amps on their records - that's not going to change anytime soon.
You might say you don't like this tone, you may say it's a YouTube video played to a backing track. And maybe this would sound better if it was a real amp. Maybe that's all true. But I don't think you can say it's *terrible* tone or that it sounds NOTHING like a real amp.
Look up the word generic in the dictionary and you might find that tone (if dictionaries had sound clips). If I've heard that tone once, I've heard it a million times. It's not a bad tone at all, just completely generic. I'd never be able to attach a name to it.
Listen to Ritchie Blackmore, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Albert King, SRV... I could go on and on. These guys have a voice, and their amp choices and settings are part of it. When Jeff Beck starts using amp modelers, I'll start paying attention.
I'd say if you are listening to someone else play you won't be able to hear the difference with tons of gear, but if you are playing you will feel the difference. I do have both and the Kemper with Michael Britt profiles is an awesome box and I use it all the time. When I want to hit the record button I default to the RL and IR's though...I know you can get real close. But you can also get real close with a stack compared to a straight up single coil, it feels and sound different to me, will the audience hear a difference? Never. In a digital model or solid state amp you can also get real close but it is not possible or I have never heard it capture all the dynamics of a tube running at 300V with a device running at 30 or less. At least I have never experienced it... Can the audience hear a difference? nah. Can I hear and feel a difference ? Absolutely. I still use my Kemper to get ideas down quickly. But I'm always trying to make it sound like the amps I just flip on and play through. I will say that out of all the digital solutions I like the Kemper. But, I still prefer analog and it isn't my eyes talking.
You've said John's ears are huge. So maybe John can hear the difference. But the dude has spent HOURS upon hours A/Bing gear. I would wager even great players with good tone might not even be able to tell the difference...
^ multiple firmware updates since this (and I don't have an Axe FX)...
I only persist, my good man, because you're the only dude (and you obviously know a thing or two about tone) who I've heard outright shit on the modelers/profilers. I'm sure there are others, tho
Taking what John says above, I think it would be really interesting for you to take your tone sampling solo and run it through the Kemper against your rig, however you'd wanna do it and try two things -
1) see if you can tell when PLAYING A/B and
2) randomize the hi-fi recordings of both and with a certain sample size, see how accurate you can get at nailing which is which.....
This all might sound like a pedantic meandering guitar Pepsi Challenge, but I'd wager heavily that if the Kemper folks could identify what's separating the modeling from the real deal, they'd aim to close the gap. Don't see why they wouldn't pay for someone who could literally ID which is which. But maybe I'm talking out of my ass and then again, maybe it really is a technical issue at this stage.
As for me, like I said, with the amplifire into the power stage of the DeVille, I can get close to an RC & Maxon OD. But then again, maybe I have boorish ears. Again, though, looking forward to the impulse response (it did arrive yesterday!)
To be honest, I don't understand why you're trying to change my mind. As I said, I've wasted 6 hours of my time with the Kemper, tried the Axe FX, the Helix... I thought they all sounded like shit compared to my amp. Can't we just leave it at that?
I've got nothing against other people using amp modelers, but I have yet to hear one guitarist impress me with their tone while using one. That clip you posted is a perfect example.
I use a Korg Pandora for writing, practicing, doing workshops, etc. It fits in the palm of my hand and costs about 100 bucks. It doesn't sound like a real amp either, but it sounds great for what I use it for - it actually sounds much better than the crappy amps I'd have to play through at most workshops.
There are many terrible sounding amps out there. My guess is the people who think amp modelers sound good don't have much experience with great sounding amps. No guitarists with a reputation for great tone are using modelers on their records - doesn't that tell you something?
On the other hand, IR technology is light years ahead of amp modeling. You can crank up your 100 watt tube amp into a load box/ IR, and it sounds and feels exactly like a real cabinet. Of course you still need a great amp, load box, and IR. I still use a real cabinet because I have a soundproof room in my studio, but I would definitely use IR's for layering, and for the people who want to record in an apartment, IR's are a godsend.
My final thoughts... play through whatever inspires you to play your best, and transsexuals should inform their partners before marriage.
Another downside to amp modelers is the experimental part of them:
All the tones that we love(with maybe a few exceptions) have been made with traditional amps. When someone uses a modeler they are going into uncharted territory.
Remember in the 90s when everyone got into the pod? Top producers were saying that they were recording albums with it. Then later people said "those pods sucked but the axe fx is the real thing". Now people are saying "the axe fx is not quite there but the kemper is great"
I think this is just going to keep happening.
This also happened with sampled sounds. Remember when people were amazed by drum machines? Or by the patches in the dx7? We look back on those now and say "what were we thinking?"
So using amp modeling stuff like the kemper is a risk even if we think it sounds good now. Using real amps is not a risk.
In my opinion the only reason to use an amp modeler would be if you were going for a tone that only an amp modeler could create. This would be cool.
Also there is the functionality of low stage volume etc. which is good for touring pop bands etc. so I can see why some people would use modelers.
I say this as someone who owns a kemper and is impressed by the sounds of the kemper. But if you don't need to use a modeler why take the risk? There is no upside, is there?
[quote]Remember in the 90s when everyone got into the pod?[code]
No.
Quote:
Now people are saying "the axe fx is not quite there but the kemper is great"
No, haven't heard this one either.
Quote:
Remember when people were amazed by drum machines?
I don't even see how this is applicable?
Quote:
We look back on those now and say "what were we thinking?"
No.....we don't. Who is "we"?
Quote:
So using amp modeling stuff like the kemper is a risk even if we think it sounds good now.
Sorry....what is the "risk"? Perhaps you'd say the same thing about Midi? How about a Fender Rhodes versus a piano? Car versus horse drawn buggy? Straw man.
Quote:
In my opinion the only reason to use an amp modeler would be if you were going for a tone that only an amp modeler could create. This would be cool.
1. A fender Rhodes vs a piano is a good example. Does a fender Rhodes sound like a piano? No. Was It was trying to? Yes
2 Look at reviews of the pod from the 90s if you want to source my examples.
3 Listen to samples of much of 80s pop music if you want to check out how a dx7 stands the test of time.
4. A car goes faster then a horse drawn buggy but a modeler doesn't sound as good as a real amp.
4 I am not interested in getting close approximations of different amps. I'd rather develop a voice with one amp. I would give this advice to a beginner as well. I don't relate to the disire to play out of an ac30 and then a Marshall and then a polytone and then a ....why?
The risk I am talking about is looking back on what you record 10 years from now and saying "that sounds like shit, what the fuck was I thinking"?
And I hate when people use terms like "straw man" to characterize a criticism of modelers. I fucking hate this "argument". Now I am pissed off and I have to go run or something. Fuck, I shouldn't have entered the discussion.
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. Can it be that these guys and the myriad others who listen to them are 
