Scott Henderson Discussion

[Scott Henderson]

Sigh.... I guess I'll have to make one more post....

I can only speak for myself - my amp is a part of my personal voice. If anyone doesn't understand that, there's nothing left to talk about. Let me clarify why amp modeling didn't work for me.

Kemper - that's easy - it sounds like shit, period.

Axe FX - lots of parameters to work with, very versatile. BUT, there's no warmth and harmonics which could compare to my tube amps, the fattest sound it could make was still quite thin compared to my tube amps, and it didn't feel reactive in my hands like my tube amps.

Helix - I was given a personal demo of it by one of my good friends who used to work at Line 6. We worked for about two hours trying to make it sound as good as my amp, even plugging my own pedals into it. Finally he said - "well, this is really for guys who don't know the difference."

That being said, anyone who has a clue could probably dial in a tone from one of these devices and get a decent tone. (except for the Kemper). It might even sound like an amp - not a great amp, but an amp. Again, the clip you posted wasn't bad tone at all, and I'd never be able to tell it wasn't a real amp unless you told me - nevertheless, that kind of tone is generic, faceless, and completely useless for the kind of music I play. It's good for metal, and that's about it.

Fuck amp modelers - they suck ass. OK, I'm done - no more comments from me about this.

[Scott Henderson]

Sorry Dizzy, I just re-read your post and saw that you like the Kemper. I mean no disrespect, but I was hired to evaluate it so I have to be honest about my opinions. I'm going to take back what I said - it's not fair to say "it sounds like shit". Instead I'll say that of the three amp modelers I tried, the Kemper sounded and performed the least like a real amp.

Ok, now I'm done god dammit.

[dizzy]

No problem Scott. The thing about tone is that I think we get better at hearing it. When I went from the kemper to the reactive load and impulse response I could really hear and feel the difference. I like my tracks that I recorded with the kemper but I wish I could rerecord everything with the reactive load and real amp.
Same thing when I used to use a mesa boogie quad preamp amp and then realized that the clean tone was too dark because I jammed with someone who was playing an old fender. My ears got better and I realized that the fender had top end clarity that the boogie lacked.
That is the thing that I was trying to say in my last post but I feel like modeler people don't get. Or maybe I explain it wrong:
If someone uses a modeler and likes the sound there is a possibility that as their ears and touch get better they will realize that it actually doesn't sound as good as they thought. This RISK is not present with real amps so why take the risk?

[Scott Henderson]

Thanks Dizzy - I agree, our ears continue to grow along with our playing. I've recorded some awful tones which will haunt me forever! One very important thing to remember is that many people who play amp modelers or inferior amps don't have the luxury of comparing them to a great amp, because let's face it - great amps are very expensive. My SH-100 is one of the best amps I've ever heard, but it's 4000 dollars. I think it's worth it, but many people just don't have that kind of money to spend on an amp. You do the best you can with what you have, that's the bottom line.

[Petja]

Had to register to comment on this.

Yes the amp modelers can 'sound' exactly like a real amp. So you can blindfold me and I would probably screw up the test.

But this is the main point. Every single modeler I have tried - and I have tried all of them - does not FEEL like an amp. I always have to alter my own playing to fit the modeler itself. Does not feel right. This results in anger and frustration. I think modeling real amps will never be possible. They might get close but never a cigar.

It is like jerking off with a rubber glove.

[Mojolang]

From what I can tell, there are multiple viewpoints going on at this point:

1) Modelers sound bad

2) Modelers don't feel like a real amp/do not respond to pedals well (but sound the same/similar?)

3) Modelers don't sound EXACTLY like an amp (but I couldn't tell in a mix)

4) I can tell when I'm playing a modeler, but can't hear it

5) Modelers sound different than a real amp, but still good.

[Scott Henderson]

I keep saying I'm done with this subject - ha ha But...

It's not fair to say modelers sound bad. Many amps sound much worse! There's no doubt that a person with good ears could pull some good tones from a modeler and no one would be able to tell it's not a real amp - however there's no way in hell it'll sound as good as a really great amp - not even close. People who haven't had the opportunity to play through a seriously killer amp won't be able to grasp the concept here. That's who my friend from Line 6 was referring to when he said "this thing is for people who don't know the difference."

Amp modelers do not feel like real amps, and they don't respond to pedals as well either - that I know from personal experience.

With the amazing progress of IR technology and good reactive load boxes, any decent amp makes modelers obsolete for home recording purposes. The only reason I can see to use one is the need for extreme versatility, for example in a Top 40 band.

[dizzy]

Also:
A hot rod deluxe and some pedals won't cost more then most modeling rigs. I don't think you have to go to a great amp to sound better then a modeler.
I would rather use a hot rod and pedals then a modeler. I have had some younger students ask me what rig to get and I think I would be remiss to recommend a modeling amp.
I honestly have only heard 2 modeling tones that I liked: Jennifer Batton in Jeff Beck's band(was that a modeler?) and I like Alan Holdsworth's sound but it is nothing like what most people want for their tone. Oh yeah, I heard Seymour Duncan jamming in a club with an old line 6 combo and he sounded good. I'm sure there are other examples.

[Mojolang]

^

"I would rather use a hot rod and pedals then a modeler."

.....then buys a $2,000 kemper and says he likes it.

I think it's pretty clear we're lumping modelers and profilers together in this thread....

[Mojolang]

[dizzy]

I used a kemper to record before I started to use a real amp with a reactive load. I would never use the kemper live. It was always a direct recording solution. Like I said I would rather use a hot rod deluxe and pedals.

I don't understand what you are trying to do. You pick apart what I write into individual quotes and then attempt to find some kind of logical flaw in each one.
So far in this thread the only example of a good tone from a modeler(or a profiler if using the terms interchangeably bothers you) is the video you posted. This doesn't exactly make your case.
Instead of trying to out-logic me(which will never work because we are talking about aesthetics here) why don't you post some clips or give examples of great tones from modeling or profiling?
If you break what I wrote up into individual quotes and respond to each one again I am going to vomit stomach acid and burn my throat.

[Mojolang]

See the pete thorn clip where he profiled his Suhr.

[Scott Henderson]

And I'm sure Pete will be using the profile on his next album instead of his Suhr. His profile sounds OK, but he did that demo for Kemper and doesn't want to make them look bad by including an A/B clip between the profile and the real amp. No offense to Pete, but he's an expert at gear demos, and like Mike Landau, can get a good tone playing through just about anything.

I saw a pedal demo by Pete, and I thought it sounded so good that I bought the pedal. When I got it home, it didn't sound so good when compared to the pedals I use, so I returned it the same day.

I also made a profile of my Suhr when I had the Kemper at my house, and could've posted the clip of it on the Internet. I didn't, because it sounded much thinner than the amp, and didn't feel anything like a real amp. It had absolutely no dynamics at all, and reminded me of playing through an old Rockman. There's no way I'd recommend it to True Tone, who hired me to evaluate it.

I hate to bust your bubble, but Pete's a friend of mine - I know him well enough to know theres no fucking way he'll ever use a Kemper on a track.

[Mojolang]

He does A/B and it's with the axe fx

[Scott Henderson]

OK, if you can't hear the difference, you might be happy with an amp modeler.
I've tried them and I hate them - I can only judge from my own experience.