Scott Henderson Discussion

[countandduke]

Hey Scott...

So I was given a Fractal AX8 for Christmas and I’ve been messing with it for quite a while but not DEEP editing like I will hopefully get a chance to in the not-too-distant future.

The Fractal has MANY IR’s in the unit as it comes from the factory and although I can definitely hear MAJOR differences in some, if I narrow it down to a dozen or so that I like, some work for different types of songs because they have more mids, or less mids, more bass less.... you get the idea...

It’s almost “option anxiety”, sooooooo many options with slight variations between all of them. I know you prefer Greenbacks and so far, of the IR’s in the fractal, the greenback versions sound really good! There are many others that sound pretty darn good too.

I know this is a somewhat loaded question but I’m hoping you can answer it as best you can... do you think the day will come when you can no longer discern between a real amp and cab being mic’d versus a Fractal (or other “simulated”) amp/cab model???

I was a tube purist back in the early 90’s but the technology has come a long long way.

I truly respect your ears and your opinion because you really have some of the GREATEST tones I’ve EVER heard. I’m not blowing smoked up your ass either. I thought your VTT2 tones were good, but then I heard “Well to the Bone” and it was even better! I know they may have not been chronological in order, but I can hear the progression for sure!

What do you think these companies are missing??? Do you think if you had the time and resources, you could do IR’s so that you couldn’t tell real amp from “simulated”?

Hope this makes sense, and I hope someone doesn’t respond about us wanting help writing papers!!! LOL...

Thanks Scott...
Best,
Chris

[Scott Henderson]

I don't have anything against amp modeling and IR's, but I haven't been able to get my personal tone with anything I've tried so far. There could be multiple reasons for that - maybe I got lucky and my room is tuned really well, or maybe my mic placement wasn't copied (I definitely know it wasn't by Celestion). Also, I'm using a Kerry Wright cabinet, and there's a huge difference in tone between that and a current 4x12 made by just about anyone.

I feel like a lot of undue praise has been given to amp modelers used by players (mostly metal) with a generic, thin, hi-gain tone which could easily be made by most bad amps. It's not a win when your amp modeler sounds like a real amp, but a shitty one. That being said, when I heard Daniel Zimmerman's new album and found out he used a Kemper on the whole thing, I was surprised - he gets a really fat blues tone and it sounds great. That record totally changed my attitude about amp modelers.

I haven't tried the most recent version of the Kemper or Axe FX, so I can't say what's good or bad about them, but obviously we've come to a time when someone with good ears can get good tone from them. The Suhr load box feels exactly like a real speaker and some of the IR's I've tried sound very real to me - but as I said before, I haven't been able to get my personal tone with them. (yet)

[countandduke]

Thanks for the reply Scott. I’ve played many amps, preamps into power amps and I agree that the tone AND FEEL of a “real” amp (and even a good preamp into a power amp) is/are hard to beat. The first line 6 amps in the 90’s has a latency that was super annoying. The notes didn’t oscillate the right way and it all sounded really really (digital), but I think the technology is getting closer. I DO wish some of these companies would ask guys like you to come in and set up YOUR rig and then see if they can duplicate it. I may need to send an email or 2... 😉😃😉

Again, thanks Scott.
Chris

[Scott Henderson]

I'd love nothing more to get some gizmo creators over to my house and see if they can duplicate my tone - it would be great to have windows in my room again.

Actually I think it might be impossible due to all the small details of how a player uses a real amp and cabinet.

How the cabinet is made - There's a reason a vintage 60's Marshall cab is so expensive. It's high grade birch (including the back!!!!), very lightweight, and has dove-tailed joints. When the cabinet is light, it vibrates more and produces better tone. The Kerry Wright cabs are exact clones of the vintage ones. OwnHammer says their IR's are made with real vintage cabs, but if companies are getting IR's from current Marshall cabs, their battle is already lost. Those cabinets suck - they have pressboard backs (nothing sounds worse), and thin, low quality wire which looks like it came out of a TV.

The speaker - Just because it's a Greenback, that doesn't mean it's a good one. Many IR's of the older vintage ones are very dark and muddy sounding, even with the brightest mic placement. I have some real 1969 vintage Greenbacks and they're not as bright as modern Greenbacks, but they're not muddy and dark. Celestion kinda cheaped out and didn't make enough mic placements. The bright one is too bright and the balanced one is too dull (for me that is). I have a "favorites" folder of IR's from OwnHammer, RedWirez, and Celestion. Not one of them doesn't have a flaw which prevents me from being able to actually use it as my main tone on a record.

I have another beef with IR makers. Why go through all the trouble to make IR's using mics that no engineer in his right mind would ever use on a guitar cabinet? Most of them sound terrible, not because it's an IR, but because those mics on a real cabinet sound terrible. Some traditions just shouldn't be fucked with. You can't go wrong with a '57, and if there's not enough bass, mix it with a ribbon and you're done. If you use .008's, a Nuemann 87 works great to fatten up the tone - it did for Holdsworth. Holy shit I'm going on a rant........ OK, listen to Band Of Gypsys - in my opinion Jimi's best recorded tone. A '57 stuck into the speaker, not 20 of Kramer's mics mixed together to stroke his own ego. OK, I'm done.

Mic placement - This is extremely important and personal to any guitarist who's picky about tone. Move the mic just a half inch and it's not you anymore. Come on Celestion, if you're gonna go through all the trouble, it would've only taken a few more minutes to make a bigger variety of mic placements. Also, it's not just where the mic is horizontally across the face of the speaker, but the distance of the mic from the grille cloth. For me it's exactly an inch - move it backwards or forwards and my tone is broken. Maybe the reason I don't like my IR's is because they placed the mic too close or far away from the cab.

The room - It doesn't get any more confusing. Some rooms just sound bad, no matter how big or small. Every single quality or flaw of the room gets back into the mic, even when close-micing. Who knows what kind of rooms these people are sampling speakers in?

The sampling software and other geeky things - I'm no expert but I've talked to a few. A transistor power amp has to be used to power the speaker - supposedly one with no color of it's own, but I find it hard to believe that such transparency exists. Every piece of gear colors the tone in some way. I've also heard arguments about which IR-making software is better, so there's another can of worms.

Last but certainly not least, the speaker cable - Most people who've never AB'd speaker cable would freak at the difference it makes in the tone, even with a short three foot cable. I tried a short Monster Cable once and it sounded like I turned the presence on my amp to 10. Horrible! Mogami makes a speaker cable called Marshall Sound Runner - it's awesome. I use the 10 gauge version and cut it in half to wire the cabinet. I've seen some guys using high quality speaker cable with current Marshall cabs and I have to laugh because once that signal gets to the jack, it's carried to the speakers by wire as thin as spaghetti. Whatever speaker cable you decide you like, it should also be used to wire the cabinet. So, how thin is the wire inside the cabs that these IR guys are sampling? What speaker cable are they using? Do they even know how much difference it makes?

I hate having no windows, but I'm gonna keep using my cabinet.

[Thanasis]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter Scott. A silly question..I have seen Pete Thorn making his own IRs and doing comparisons, couldn't you make your own IRs with BlendIR in your room with the mic distance you want and the cables you want? Or is it still not capturing the full details that you're after?

Looking forward to the lecture today,
all the best.

[countandduke]

I’d buy that IR Scott!!!

Thanks for such a great reply. There are SOOOOOO many little things that can make huge differences in tone! Most people would even think of the speaker wire INSIDE the cabinet!

Have you found that the power cable going TO the amp makes a difference? I think there are companies that make special HEAVY DUTY power cords. I’m talking about the cable from the wall outlet to the amp.

Best,
Chris

[Scott Henderson]

I've tried BlendIR several times, with not much luck - Pete is probably more experienced with it than I am. My friend Adam Stark helped me when I tried it, and brought a 50 watt Carvin power amp to power the cabinet. We followed the directions carefully, and tried sampling the cabinet at a few different volume levels. The result was very close to my tone regarding EQ, but something was seriously missing. For lack of a better description, it didn't sound 3D, it sounded flat and small. It reminded me of comparing guitar tone recorded at 44.1 vs. 96 - no contest really. When I started checking out OwnHammer IR's, they sounded better than mine. Again, I'm a total amateur so it's possible that I screwed something up.

I haven't tried other AC cables, but I've heard people say it makes a difference in how the amp sounds and feels. My power cords are thick, but this one looks better.

https://www.mercurymagnetics.com/pages/catalog/other/powercord/AC-cord-01.htm

I'll buy it and see if it does what they say it does.

[dizzy]

Thanks for the kind words about my sound Scott.

I already told Scott this but for anyone else:

1. I only liked one sound on my Kemper—a clean bassman profiled by Matt Britt. I tried to get dirty sounds from the kemper and I always ended up running pedals into the clean profile—-—B.B. preamp sd9 cot and Jan ray.

2. Now that I have a Suhr load box I have been running my fender amp and my jtm 45 clone into my computer and using celestion IRs for new demos.
This might sound similar to other people but it feels MUCH better to me because the input of the amp is dynamic. With modelers the input is always the week link imo.

I would only ever get a modeler again if I was on a gig where I needed many sounds or there was some logistical reason—-no stage sound allowed etc.

I don’t see the appeal of modelers because even if they ever were to sound “as good” AND feel “as good” they will never sound or feel better then a tube amp.

That’s imo of course.

[Scott Henderson]

Thanks for the info Dan - the tone sounds great on your CD, but I was wondering if the feel thing was still an issue - I figured it probably was. I played through the newest version of the Line 6 Helix and it didn't feel like a real amp either, and like you, the only way to make it sound good was to use my own pedals. I guess they still have a long way to go, but you sure made it work on your album!

[MarkLawrence]

[Scott Henderson]

It's been awhile but I remember running a sweep so loud I thought my speakers would blow up since the sweep produces much lower frequencies than my guitar does.

I have to say I'm not a big Two Notes fan. I used to think all IR players sounded the same, like a CD player. When I tried the same IR in their Wall Of Sound III player vs. RedWirez MixIR, there was no contest. Maybe that's because WOS truncates every IR to 18ms and MixIR can hold 2000ms of information. Most IR's are 500ms, so it wasn't surprising to me that MixIR sounded so much better than WOS. That doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence about BlendIR. I asked Kevin Rowe at OwnHammer what software he uses to capture IR's - I don't remember the name of it but it only works on PC and it's over 100 bucks. I read about it online and it looked quite a bit more complex and professional than BlendIR.

Anyone know which software Celestion uses?

Also, I have doubts about using a cheap Carvin amp to power the cabinet. I'll bet the guys who do it professionally use a much higher quality amp.

[countandduke]

Scott, are you and Pete Thorn close enough both in distance and friendship that would allow you all to meet up? It would be interesting to see if he could help you capture YOUR tone in some of these units.

It’s also one of those, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!” issues. I personally have a Fractal AX8, and there are SOOOOOOOO many parameters to adjust that I would think you could get pretty darn close to your tone but I’d be the FIRST to admit, my ears are no where near as good as yours...

Best,

Chris

[Scott Henderson]

Pete's a good friend of mine but I don't wanna waste his time on something I'm not all that enthused about - though you'd never know it by reading this thread.

I'm sure you have good ears, and though of course that's part of it, it's mainly about the gizmo's ability to do the job or not. I'm sure I can get close to my EQ with the AxeFX but it's the other stuff - the feel, the depth, the overall size of the sound, without having to add a bunch of EQ which makes it sound weird.

The main issue with amp modelers is what they're being compared to. If someone has an average amp which they're used to hearing, it's possible that an amp modeler could sound better, but I'm not seeing any players who own vintage Marshall or Fender amps using amp modelers - there's a reason for that. They might be using IR's if they can't record loud - that technology seems to be further along, according to Dan's earlier post.

[dizzy]

Yeah—I am pretty blown away by IRs and my real amp head because the times I have gone into a studio and had my amp mic’ed by someone else I didn’t like the sound as much as my IRs that I have now. This might be because I’m relaxed at home and I don’t have to deal with external pressure but I really think my new sounds are as good as I could get in a real studio(although I haven’t recorded in big amazing studios before)

Also I like that I can work on my live tone while I record and vice versa because I am using my real amp.
Scott—-when I hear you play live the sound coming out of your speaker is the sound that I hear on your albums. That is my goal—-

[Scott Henderson]

The only reason my tone sounds the same live as on my records is because I'm using the same cabinet with the same mic placement. If that's your goal, have a contractor push your window frames out and wall it up! No more IR's, and you'll have your exact live tone in the studio. Who's needs sunlight anyway?

BTW I tried a Mercury AC cable. All it does is add some bass, which in my case makes notes on the G and D string loose their voice and sound woofy. I guess it could be an improvement for someone using a smaller cabinet. Glad it was only 10 bucks.