Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:04 pm Post subject: What defines a world-class player?
What do you think differentiates a world class player from a 'not' world class player? I've been having a debate with someone, and my thought is that it's defined by an exceptional level of skill and artistry, like, next-next-next level. This is an oversimplified explanation of my thoughts on it, but it gets the idea across (I'm multitasking at work).
A sub-debate that came out of it is the idea of being able to 'hold your own' with a player/s, or 'hang'. My contention is that just because you are able to render sound with a player who is on that level, and you don't get your ass beaten in the parking lot doesn't mean you can 'hang' with the person. Being able to 'hang', to me, means the other person is not only able to play with their full range of expression, but that it draws things out of everyone involved.
One more thought: I think there's a line between being able to 'hang' with great players, and not being able to hang with not-very-good players. I find that I sound like shit when I play with people who are still working on refining their craft, and I'm sometimes torn as to whether I can't hang in that situation, or if it's just the expected result.
I'd present write out the other persons argument, but I'd like to see what you have to say first.
I hope this shit makes sense, I'm literally swiveling my head between two computers; work and this.
Update: and for that matter, where does subjectivity begin? I see this thrown into the mix when ground is being lost.
I agree with your first paragraph, but the topic is a bit subjective since style comes into play - a world class jazz musician who knows nothing about getting a rock tone wouldn't be able to hang with players in the rock world and would sound like an amateur, and a world class rock player who knows nothing about harmony would have an impossible time on a standards gig.
I think it's natural for any good musician to be disappointed and even upset when having to play with people who aren't good musicians, and it could affect their performance in a negative way. I don't think that takes away from their "world class" status. We'd all like to think we should be able to play our best in any given situation, but I'm living proof that it isn't true - I'm inconsistent as hell. Bad sounding rental gear, boomy unmusical rooms, not enough sleep, etc. - it can all make a world class player not sound like a world class player.
I agree with your first paragraph, but the topic is a bit subjective since style comes into play - a world class jazz musician who knows nothing about getting a rock tone wouldn't be able to hang with players in the rock world and would sound like an amateur, and a world class rock player who knows nothing about harmony would have an impossible time on a standards gig.
You need a world class rhythm section for your music; what are deal breakers for you? What do you look for?
I need guys who can groove. Chops is a plus, but if the groove isn't there, all is lost. And of course they have to be nice people - I've had to work with some assholes during my career, but never again.
But Matt.
What would you say if you heard Bill Frisell play with Michael Brecker playing standards? Bill Frisell couldn't "hang" but that doesn't diminish what he does. Or how about Michael Landau playing all the things you are with Pat Metheny.
It sounds like you are saying "I need to be able to play with most burning cats in the world before I can be creative and make worthwhile art" but that's not true. I don't think that just because you aren't on the scale of artists who burn means that you can't create beautiful music.
But Matt.
What would you say if you heard Bill Frisell play with Michael Brecker playing standards? Bill Frisell couldn't "hang" but that doesn't diminish what he does. Or how about Michael Landau playing all the things you are with Pat Metheny.
It sounds like you are saying "I need to be able to play with most burning cats in the world before I can be creative and make worthwhile art" but that's not true. I don't think that just because you aren't on the scale of artists who burn means that you can't create beautiful music.
I'm not talking about *me* being world class.
As far as the people you mention, one of the defining characteristics of a heavy player (meaning: a player who isn't just sick as hell, technically, but an actual "heavy" player) is that they'll be sensitive to what's going on. If Brecker and Frisell got together to play, why would they play standards, and if they did, why wouldn't they play in a way that made the most beautiful music? I doubt Brecker would bulldoze Frisell; they'd make music together. Next-level, heavy shit.
If Landau and Metheny were to play All The Things You Are (why would they do that?), I'm sure they'd make *music* out of it, and not just bulldoze into something like you'd find on one of Metheny's trio albums. My point is that solid, sensitive musicians will do what's necessary to make great music with whatever circumstance they're put into.
Again, this isn't a matter of me feeling like I need to hit a certain level in order to make good art, this was based on a conversation I was having with someone. My own artistic security is intact. That being said, I do take music very seriously, constantly self-assess, and shed/compose every chance I get, which is why I said, "I suck". But.. I also love the music I write and play. It gives me more joy than anything else in my life. Still, though.. I suck.
Absolutely there's a difference between competent musicians and heavy, top level guys. But those guys are on all the recordings we love and I don't think it's rocket science to know who's a bad ass and who isn't. Of course there's the personal taste factor, and you'll never win that argument because it can't be won.
All musicians can do things which others can't, and even the greatest ones don't offer everything, they just offer what they do best. Jeff Beck can't do what Tommy Emmanuel does, and vice versa, but they're both heavy players. That being said, I also listen to musicians who aren't "heavy", simply because I like their music and don't need them to be virtuosos. Thank goodness for the Rolling Stones. I doubt if they walk off stage saying "I suck", and we all should have more fun on stage and care less about comparing ourselves to ourselves and others.
To me Keith Richards is the perfect example. It's all about music in the first place, that music 'lives' inside your head. if you can play that music the way you hear and like it, it's simply perfect. And it will show! If you're a player who is technically 1000 times as sophisticated as Keith is, but you can't play 'your inner' music then you still have work to do, because that is a misfit. Most of the time i'm such a misfit, sometimes i'm happy.
If the music is right, the player is right. My eyes on Keith Richards were finally opened when i saw a live video of his Expensive Winos with the wonderfull Steve Jordan. And hey, if it's good enough for Steve...
I agree with Scott about groove and nice persons. If i can't look a person in the eyes, i can't play with him. If i play with someone that doesn't groove, i can't look him or her in the eyes.
I don't teach, but i once had a dear friend begging me to teach him. The guy had some severe coördination problems, i couldn't even make him tap his feet to the utmost simple 4 beat strum with one simple chord. Besides that he was an absolute beginner with no knowledge at all, let alone being familiar with any scale or harmony. But after a few lessons i would jam with him on one major chord and guess what: this guy actually took me on a journey with just a few simple and very badly timed notes! Those were quite special experiences.
Absolutely there's a difference between competent musicians and heavy, top level guys. But those guys are on all the recordings we love and I don't think it's rocket science to know who's a bad ass and who isn't. Of course there's the personal taste factor, and you'll never win that argument because it can't be won.
All musicians can do things which others can't, and even the greatest ones don't offer everything, they just offer what they do best. Jeff Beck can't do what Tommy Emmanuel does, and vice versa, but they're both heavy players. That being said, I also listen to musicians who aren't "heavy", simply because I like their music and don't need them to be virtuosos. Thank goodness for the Rolling Stones. I doubt if they walk off stage saying "I suck", and we all should have more fun on stage and care less about comparing ourselves to ourselves and others.
I may disagree with a small part of the first paragraph. Are there not players on 'that level' who almost nobody has heard, or haven't gotten their chance to be 'discovered' and put on recordings?
I need guys who can groove. Chops is a plus, but if the groove isn't there, all is lost. And of course they have to be nice people - I've had to work with some assholes during my career, but never again.
All of them are historical figures in music but historic assholes as well.
Would you join that band in an imaginary world and can you imagine all the assholean modes, lol ?!? _________________ Plan like you are going to live forever, live like you are going to die tomorrow.
I never heard that about Jaco before - people that knew him tell me he was a nice person, but like anyone suffering from mental illness and drug abuse, his behavior was off at times.
Buddy was also known as a very nice guy with friends who he respected - however he was mean to the young kids in his band. Dave Carpenter, the late, great bassist who I was fortunate to work with on tour and on my Tore Down House album, played with Buddy when he was 19 - he's the one who asks "settings?" on the famous tapes.
Jarrett is a known asshole and I wouldn't even say hello to him, much less play music with him. I can't listen to half his music because of him squealing like a stuck pig over it. That being said, he's one of the greatest pianists ever, an improvising genius.
I never heard that about Jaco before - people that knew him tell me he was a nice person, but like anyone suffering from mental illness and drug abuse, his behavior was off at times.
Buddy was also known as a very nice guy with friends who he respected - however he was mean to the young kids in his band. Dave Carpenter, the late, great bassist who I was fortunate to work with on tour and on my Tore Down House album, played with Buddy when he was 19 - he's the one who asks "settings?" on the famous tapes.
Jarrett is a known asshole and I wouldn't even say hello to him, much less play music with him. I can't listen to half his music because of him squealing like a stuck pig over it. That being said, he's one of the greatest pianists ever, an improvising genius.
I laughed my ass off when i heard Jarrett stop playing in the middle of one of his solos because someone coughed.
He refused to finish the concert and started lecturing the audience on why they should not cough at his concert.
I still cannot believe that shit... _________________ Plan like you are going to live forever, live like you are going to die tomorrow.
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