Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:50 pm Post subject: Tear stimulating tone! and related questions...
Hello! I`ve been in your conerts 2 times in Almaty.( the Second time, I brought my parents from Kyrgyzstan) Thank you for coming and giving a chance to listen to a world class musicians)
I`ve noticed when I hear world class musicians live(mostly when they come to Khazkstan) and when they hit the first note, I get very emotional and even have tears for a while. It`s like a shock of hearing some very high quality sound. Then after a while I get used to the it and just enjoy.
What is interesting, that a friend of mine and my mom experienced the same effect when you started to play. So, therefore I assume that nothing wrong with me.
Have you ever felt the same when you get to hear other great musicians?
Have you questioned yourself , about how to achieve this?
What might cause it? Certain level of musiciansip? perfect tone? Dynamics?
Also, I`ve noticed that the concert in Almaty all the band sounded very loud! And the overall sound is so huge! I could feel the power and drive of the sound inside my body, even some kind punches of audio walls hitting me.
After, this conert I started to strive for this sound myself. Nobody in my country play so loud, and I don`t now even, if will be able to have a chance to create this huge sound on local gigs. And the sound actually was not only from you, but from the other band members, how they react, how they interact, dynamics tightnes and their technique.
But, you play this loud almost every time, isn`t it dangerous for hearing? Do you use any earsaving-earplugs? or it`s just the thing that you got used to and feel comfortable?
I think if a concert was that loud I might cry too. What you don’t understand, and what a lot of people don’t understand, is that our stage volume isn’t loud at all, it’s the idiot sound man who turns it up to ridiculous volumes and makes the audience suffer. We experienced this just last night at a concert in Italy - we started the show with the Miles Davis tune “All Blues”, which is very quiet. I had friends in the audience who told me that from the first note of the show, it was unbearably loud. Every time we played soft, the sound man thought it was his job to compensate by turning it up.
We play to the volume of our drummer on stage, who plays at a medium volume level. I remember the club in Almaty - it’s a large room. The stage volume alone couldn’t possibly make a sound like you’re describing - that’s the PA system with a deaf person running the board. We tell soundmen what we want at sound check, and sometimes they follow our instructions, but other times those assholes ignore us, knowing that we can’t do anything about it once we’re on stage.
Touring without our own sound man sucks - we can’t afford it in this economy, and during the times we had our own guy, I took it for granted, not realizing what a luxury it was.
It’s a fact that many soundmen get their jobs because they know how to run a digital board, not because they have good ears or any talent at all for mixing.
I think if a concert was that loud I might cry too.
Actually tears started on the first song. it was All Blues. But the first song wasn`t too loud, it was very comfortable. As I remember every next tune was becoming louder.
And I wouldn`t describe the tears like I was suffering from music. It was more of " Tears of Happines" Because the sound was amazing.......
Quote:
What you don’t understand, and what a lot of people don’t understand, is that our stage volume isn’t loud at all
Maybe not understanding comes from, that we actually hear world class music only from the internet, and it`s different. The sound it`s compressed, not dynamic. And when we hear the same music played live , we get shocked about how everything it`s different.
I`ve also performed in this stage few times. So yes it actually feels not very loud. But also I think it has to do with how we play. I don`t usually use combo, I hear myself from monitors, and our drummer mostly play soft.
And you were playing into cranked up Marshall(I actually never hear anybody in my Country who cranks up marshall, most of the guitar players not serious about their tone, and they play with cheap Line 6 processors.)
And your Bass Player pluck the strings very powerfully, and the drummer playes with much more dynamics and power, than our local ones.
Maybe that`s way we have not understanding.....
Quote:
Also, I`ve noticed that the concert in Almaty all the band sounded very loud! And the overall sound is so huge! I could feel the power and drive of the sound inside my body, even some kind punches of audio walls hitting me
I wasn`t describing your loudness with complete negativity. I actually liked the sound, and enjoyed the effect that I experienced in my body.
It was loud but very musical and crystal clear , I could hear all the rich harmonics and that power that comes from the music. Only afterwards, my ears would ring a bit, and during the concert in order to talk to somebody I had to yell( so,as you described it was the problem of the soundman)
After a month you had performed, In Almaty`s hard Rock cafe was performing Guthrie Govan. The Room Was much bigger, but they weremuch louder, And didn`t enjoy the loudness at all, it was terrible. I`didn`t experience anything in my body, there was no power even though it was louder. It just was hurting my ears, completely dissapointed with the sound. non musical, I couldn`t hear some time guitar, and drumms sounded flubby. (their soundmans were much worse, and PA system as well)
So what about experiencing "Happy tears" when you listen to great musicians live? have you ever felt the same? Is there a certain level of musicianship tha make people cry from the first note?
I've definitely had emotional moments while listening to some of my favorite music, but I don't think I've ever had tears during a concert, except for tears of disappointment and humiliation after some of my own shows. (Musicians aren't always satisfied with their playing. Well, some are, but I wouldn't want to hang out with them.)
I get what you're describing though, like seeing an amazing movie on the big screen as opposed to TV - the experience is better in every way. I'm glad you liked the sound of our concert - I remember that show and it didn't seem like the volume for the audience was overly loud, but from the stage we can't hear what the audience hears. It's sad that the person mixing the show, the most important person in the room, doesn't always know what he's doing. Your ears should never ring after a concert - if they do, throw something at the soundman.
I was in HBC concert in Tel Aviv a few years ago. The volume was unbearable and someone from the crowd asked you guys to turn it a bit down and Jeff Berlin made fun of him and told him he can get out if he wants. Your playing and tone were amazing but it was hard to enjoy the show because of that.
Sorry for Jeff's rudeness, but that was a huge room. It's not possible for a band like HBC (which had the softest stage volume of any of my trios) to generate that kind of volume. Without the PA system, the band would hardly be heard in that a room that big. Another show ruined by an idiot soundman.
I would love it if we could just turn the PA off in the middle of a song, just to show people the difference between stage volume and what they're hearing.
Scott did you ever think about using a small pa without 'external' soundman?
Small bands with good musicians don't really need someone that isn't even playing along but still has the power and the lack of knowledge and/or taste to overpower literally everything you're creating on stage.
If you put a decent mackie mixer and two 15 inch active speakers on your rider, all problems will be solved. The other guy will only touch the stuff when setting up or breaking down.
A PA like that might work for a small room, but not for a 2000 seat theatre or an outdoor festival. A big PA is needed for headroom and clarity, but not to break people's eardrums.
I've definitely had emotional moments while listening to some of my favorite music, but I don't think I've ever had tears during a concert, except for tears of disappointment and humiliation after some of my own shows. (Musicians aren't always satisfied with their playing. Well, some are, but I wouldn't want to hang out with them.)
I get what you're describing though, like seeing an amazing movie on the big screen as opposed to TV - the experience is better in every way. I'm glad you liked the sound of our concert - I remember that show and it didn't seem like the volume for the audience was overly loud, but from the stage we can't hear what the audience hears. It's sad that the person mixing the show, the most important person in the room, doesn't always know what he's doing. Your ears should never ring after a concert - if they do, throw something at the soundman.
Thank you for the replay!!! really appreciate it!!
I just realised that it creats Ignorance.
It`s common for some our local musicians to have this believe that we should play overly loud.
See, most of them have never got chance to see live, world class musicians. Sometimes we do have chance( but only the ones who are willing to drive 300 kilometers across another country, do that. It`isn`t that bad I.S Bach managed to WALK that far, just to see great musicians). And after just couple of concerts, whith terrible soundman they start to say that we also have to play that loud and playing quite is bad.
Maybe it`s partly true, playing with more energy is good(if music needs it).
but there is definitelyshould be a precaution.
Quote:
Your ears should never ring after a concert - if they do, throw something at the soundman
So, I think this it will influence, especially if I say that Scott Henderson told me that)
My bass fella after getting "tears" from the concert said," See we need to play that loud, how are you going to deliver your message if not."
Quote:
I've definitely had emotional moments while listening to some of my favorite music, but I don't think I've ever had tears during a concert
I think these are different feelings. When music is strong people get emotional. The last time I went emotional while listening this solo of David Gilmour, it` start at 4.55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foVY5kLqp6w
But during a concert, it think it`s more like a shock. Maybe it happens when you have never heard world class sound, and all your live you`ve been listening bad musicians. And suddenly you hear very high quality performance , and it`s schocking.
What interesting that after experiencing this, you start to hear how music supposed to sound, on what level musicians perform , and notice lot`s of small details. Evevn you are watching it on Youtube. Before it was just blank.[/quote]
We play many different venues. In Europe during spring and fall, we play everything from small jazz clubs to large theaters. In Asia and South America it's mainly large clubs or outdoor festivals. Summer in Europe is always outdoor festivals. Most of the time we're at the mercy of the soundman, and he determines if the concert will sound good or not.
The difference in talent between these people is HUGE. Ronnie Scott's in London has a soundman named Miles, who makes everything sound amazing, and we've worked with others who were equally as good. However, many soundmen don't seem to have a clue about ANYTHING concerning music. They only know which knobs do what on a digital mixer, and that's ALL they know. Then there are many who are just OK but not great. That's the reality in the current economy where many bands can no longer afford to bring their own soundman on the road.
That's the reality in the current economy where many bands can no longer afford to bring their own soundman on the road.
Well, here in the netherlands the problem is even bigger. The biggest part of the problem being most contractors not having a clue about sound since they are good businessmen. So they have to rely on people who's opinion they trust. But unfortunately those people are in way too many occasions total brownnosers who haven't a clue either.
The by far most stupid stuff i ever encountered was a tour in all hollands biggest theaters, so that is a big tour for our standards with 200 gigs, with 'our own' soundman. That means the soundman was assigned to us by the soundcompany we hired from. So, each and every goddamn night again, we would have the same huge feedback in the system, in the bass territory!
You really have to abuse any system hard to get it to feedback in the lows, but each and every night, at the exact same spot in the opening song?? WTF are soundchecks for in the first place, and how do you manage to get that feedback at all, and how on earth night after night??? Who hired this guy?? And why doesn't he play bass if he likes it so much???
Ok, sorry for the rant.
Btw Scott, i've been listening to PM quite a few times now. What is that about Fawn? There is something to it that is just amazing and beautifull and it strucks me every time. What a great way to end the album!
That situation sounds pretty extreme - we don't usually get people that stupid. I think a lot of these "soundmen" get jobs by references alone, and I mean references for their technical abilities and dependability - I doubt if mixing skills have much to do with it.
I've been to a few metal shows - they sound pretty much like the records. I'm not a fan, but the thing I dislike most is the mixing style. The bass, kick, and floor toms have an insane amount of bass frequency, the cymbals are way too loud and screechy, and the guitar is horribly thin. There's a large group of soundmen out there who think that's what music's supposed to sound like - I know because I've been sitting next to them at the bass & drums soundcheck. They never seem to mind taking instructions to do it differently, but some actually follow those instructions and others blow them off as soon as the gig starts.
Thanks for the compliment on Fawn. It's probably the most diatonic tune on the record and I was afraid it was too Kenny G, but my friends tell me it's more Steely Dan. That's OK because I like a lot of their music and I'm not afraid to have a pop side.
No, musical mixing or even a musical ear doesn't seem to be the reference when these people get jobs. These metal mixes are apparently all about 'pounding drums and crushing bass' so yeah the guitars will have not much room if one doesn't know how to mix that. Ergo: fuck guitars. It happens all the time, not only in metal.
Kenny G in Fawn? I didn't hear it, Steely Dan did come to mind though. Two Against Nature to be specific. So don't worry too much about your inner Kenny G! It only get's scary whenever entities occur in your guitar room that keep repeating 'your mother plays soprano saxophone in hell'.
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